|
Post by RinsePrius on Sept 12, 2024 22:33:43 GMT
The greatest risk of world war and nuclear conflict would be realized if Ukraine falls. Defending Ukraine is all about avoiding a larger war. Absolute bullshit. There are no portions of Poland that consider themselves Russian. That would rather be a part of Russia. Do you think Ukraine shouldn’t stop until it recovers Crimea as well? Haha what? Is that what this is *ALL* about?!
|
|
|
Post by rabbitreborn on Sept 12, 2024 22:34:14 GMT
Yeah, not really. This has been a limited war since 2014.
So, the stage is already being set for conceding territory to Russia at the very least.
It's a limited war in Ukraine. That's the whole point. But would it continue to be limited if Poland were the target? What's our read on how Russia fares in a direct confrontation with NATO? Russia would not fare well. But Russia wouldn’t directly attack NATO unless it felt its very existence was under threat.
|
|
|
Post by freonbale on Sept 12, 2024 22:34:53 GMT
Sure, but you have to DELIVER them. It's not enough to have them, unless your goal is to blow yourself up. Freon
I have full expectations they can do that.
I don't. Did you know that the primary bomber Russia uses is the Bear? And did you know that the Bear is a propeller aircraft? Slow, easy to spot, easy to shoot down. The F14, in the 1970s, was purpose built to carry the extremely heavy Phoenix missile, which could destroy the Bear in a single shot. 50 years later, a single cruise missile could do the job. And we have WAY more of them, than they have Bears. You could put one on a smaller plane, but Russia doesn't have a lot of them that can carry a nuclear weapon, and none of them are stealth (except the Felon, and their are only six). So I guess they could launch one of their nuclear missiles, but they are designed for long range attack, and need to gain extremely high altitude to be effective, which means they'd have to launch from deep in Siberia, which would be easy to detect, and I'll bet patriot batteries are already deployed for that eventuality. You could fire a tactical nuke (very small yield) from artillery, but supply lines into Ukraine have been decimated, and I doubt Russia would risk losing any nukes to Ukrainian guerilla attacks or drone strikes. So how are they going to do it? And would they hit their own land in Kursk? No. Ukraine invading Kursk was the red line. It was crossed, and Russia did NOTHING. Freon
|
|
|
Post by RinsePrius on Sept 12, 2024 22:36:28 GMT
It's a limited war in Ukraine. That's the whole point. But would it continue to be limited if Poland were the target? What's our read on how Russia fares in a direct confrontation with NATO? Russia would not fare well. But Russia wouldn’t directly attack NATO unless it felt its very existence was under threat. That's not the read of the situation I am familiar with. I thought this was about plugging the gates.
|
|
|
Post by freonbale on Sept 12, 2024 22:40:25 GMT
Russia blinked. The red line that they intimated would result in nukes has been crossed, and Russia did.....NOTHING. Ukraine invaded Russia's Kursk region nearly unopposed, taking American and European light armor with them and Russia did nothing. Now, Ukraine is attacking Moscow itself, burning oil refineries around the country, and still, what has Russia done? Nothing. Yeah, Austria thought that too at one time. They were right, until they weren't. Going up the escalation ladder is a dangerous game. You can't assume they'll never react. Whether they drop one or not depends on how threatened they feel. Like say, lifting restrictions on long range weapons. There's a lot of division in Nato about lifting these restrictions, because it would be escalatory. I suspect we're doing a bit of sabre-rattling on our own. We'll see. Sure, there's always that risk, but it boils down to the same two variables it always has. How do you respond to a bully. And do the Russians love their children too. If Russia was a religious nation, like those in the Middle East, I'd fully expect them to blow themselves up, if it meant blowing up their enemies. But they're not. Which means, in the end, preservation of Russia is still their paramount objective, and they KNOW the rest of the world will not tolerate a nuclear reaction unless the entire country is at risk. And that's not happening. This war is about pride. It's about Putin wanting Russia to be great and powerful, and he BADLY miscalculated, so now it's a question of how to extract themselves from this mess with the least amount of losing face. There is NOTHING to be gained by escalation. Freon
|
|
|
Post by rabbitreborn on Sept 12, 2024 22:46:01 GMT
Absolute bullshit. There are no portions of Poland that consider themselves Russian. That would rather be a part of Russia. Do you think Ukraine shouldn’t stop until it recovers Crimea as well? Haha what? Is that what this is *ALL* about?! LOL. Not “*ALL*”. That’s your word. But do you think Ukraine shouldn’t stop this little tiny war which prevents global nuclear war until it recovers Crimea under its political control?
|
|
|
Post by rabbitreborn on Sept 12, 2024 22:46:41 GMT
Russia would not fare well. But Russia wouldn’t directly attack NATO unless it felt its very existence was under threat. That's not the read of the situation I am familiar with. I thought this was about plugging the gates. What evidence is there that Russia will attack NATO?
|
|
|
Post by RinsePrius on Sept 12, 2024 22:55:21 GMT
That's not the read of the situation I am familiar with. I thought this was about plugging the gates. What evidence is there that Russia will attack NATO? I'd check out Peter Zeihan's work on this subject. It's about geography and a return to the natural barriers that the Soviet Union enjoyed. But to get something more than mere western speculation. "Another question is to you, guys in the West, what are you going to do about it?" Zhuravlyov asked. "They understand very well that Ukraine is finished. So what's next? Sweden is getting ready and so are the Balkans. The Poles have quieted down a bit, they probably started to realize that they are next. Of course, we have no illusions, but we understand that all of them are getting ready for the next stage of war." -Aleksey Zhuravlyov aka Putin's Brain www.express.co.uk/news/world/1855445/ww3-poland-next-russia-target-vladimir-putin-ukraine-war
|
|
demos
Legend
Posts: 9,199
|
Post by demos on Sept 12, 2024 23:05:44 GMT
But would it continue to be limited if Poland were the target? Why would Poland be a target? I think people just use that example to play off the worn out WW2 analogy. What would be the strategic reason to invade Poland? They don't have any resources that Russia wants. And Russia has Kaliningrad Oblast. And Poland's membership in Nato affects neither of those; unlike Ukraine. Also, if you look at Russia's interventions or threats of intervention - Kazakhstan, Georgia, Moldova, Ukraine - there is a common justification: large Russian minorities. Even better if those minorities start separatist movements: Crimea, Donbas, Transnistria. None of which Poland has. That they wouldn't fare well. Pretty sure that's Russia's read too which is why they didn't do anything about Serbia (not to mention their struggles in Chechnya at the time).
|
|
demos
Legend
Posts: 9,199
|
Post by demos on Sept 12, 2024 23:09:57 GMT
Which means, in the end, preservation of Russia is still their paramount objective, and they KNOW the rest of the world will not tolerate a nuclear reaction unless the entire country is at risk. And that's not happening. I would agree. That's why I think Russia would probably respond with some other escalatory measure that wouldn't directly affect that. Eh, there may be some of that, but there are actual strategic objectives to this war. Have been for 10 years now. At this point, the people most worried about losing face seem to be the West, which is why they're telling Ukraine to set realistic goals. For either side really. That's why this is dangerous game.
|
|
demos
Legend
Posts: 9,199
|
Post by demos on Sept 12, 2024 23:16:48 GMT
I'd check out Peter Zeihan's work on this subject. It's about geography and a return to the natural barriers that the Soviet Union enjoyed. Some good reading on this issue presenting a slightly different take: Empires of Eurasia: How Imperial Legacies Shape International Security by Jeffrey Mankoff Near Abroad: Putin, the West, and the Contest Over Ukraine and the Caucasus by Gerard Toal
|
|
|
Post by atreyu on Sept 12, 2024 23:24:15 GMT
I have full expectations they can do that.
I don't. Did you know that the primary bomber Russia uses is the Bear? And did you know that the Bear is a propeller aircraft? Slow, easy to spot, easy to shoot down. The F14, in the 1970s, was purpose built to carry the extremely heavy Phoenix missile, which could destroy the Bear in a single shot. 50 years later, a single cruise missile could do the job. And we have WAY more of them, than they have Bears. You could put one on a smaller plane, but Russia doesn't have a lot of them that can carry a nuclear weapon, and none of them are stealth (except the Felon, and their are only six). So I guess they could launch one of their nuclear missiles, but they are designed for long range attack, and need to gain extremely high altitude to be effective, which means they'd have to launch from deep in Siberia, which would be easy to detect, and I'll bet patriot batteries are already deployed for that eventuality. You could fire a tactical nuke (very small yield) from artillery, but supply lines into Ukraine have been decimated, and I doubt Russia would risk losing any nukes to Ukrainian guerilla attacks or drone strikes. So how are they going to do it? And would they hit their own land in Kursk? No. Ukraine invading Kursk was the red line. It was crossed, and Russia did NOTHING. Freon
I think we're talking about two different things. I totally agree that Putin will not attack Ukraine with nukes. I was following the line of Putin threatening other countries for interference.
The only time I actually believe there would be a chance of Putin launching nukes was if his life was personally being threatened due to the war coming directly for him.
My point is that Russia is still a major threat for mutually assured destruction even though I agree that most of their stockpile is likely unmaintained.
|
|
|
Post by rabbitreborn on Sept 12, 2024 23:43:19 GMT
What evidence is there that Russia will attack NATO? I'd check out Peter Zeihan's work on this subject. It's about geography and a return to the natural barriers that the Soviet Union enjoyed. But to get something more than mere western speculation. "Another question is to you, guys in the West, what are you going to do about it?" Zhuravlyov asked. "They understand very well that Ukraine is finished. So what's next? Sweden is getting ready and so are the Balkans. The Poles have quieted down a bit, they probably started to realize that they are next. Of course, we have no illusions, but we understand that all of them are getting ready for the next stage of war." -Aleksey Zhuravlyov aka Putin's Brain www.express.co.uk/news/world/1855445/ww3-poland-next-russia-target-vladimir-putin-ukraine-warDugin is known as “Putin’s brain.” Certainly not Zhuravlyov.
|
|
|
Post by RinsePrius on Sept 13, 2024 0:10:21 GMT
But would it continue to be limited if Poland were the target? Why would Poland be a target? I think people just use that example to play off the worn out WW2 analogy. What would be the strategic reason to invade Poland? They don't have any resources that Russia wants. And Russia has Kaliningrad Oblast. And Poland's membership in Nato affects neither of those; unlike Ukraine. Also, if you look at Russia's interventions or threats of intervention - Kazakhstan, Georgia, Moldova, Ukraine - there is a common justification: large Russian minorities. Even better if those minorities start separatist movements: Crimea, Donbas, Transnistria. None of which Poland has. That they wouldn't fare well. Pretty sure that's Russia's read too which is why they didn't do anything about Serbia (not to mention their struggles in Chechnya at the time). Its the why of the entire war.. Russia shifting their borders out to plug the gaps. Skip to a minute in. www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkuhWA9GdCoYes, I agree Russia would fair poorly in a direct confrontation with NATO. If Ukraine is just phase 1 of an overall plan that includes Poland and Russia has no chance of winning a conventional war with Poland/NATO, then that's the scenario where nuclear war becomes possible. Avoiding that at any reasonable cost is the goal.
|
|
|
Post by RinsePrius on Sept 13, 2024 0:25:12 GMT
I'd check out Peter Zeihan's work on this subject. It's about geography and a return to the natural barriers that the Soviet Union enjoyed. But to get something more than mere western speculation. "Another question is to you, guys in the West, what are you going to do about it?" Zhuravlyov asked. "They understand very well that Ukraine is finished. So what's next? Sweden is getting ready and so are the Balkans. The Poles have quieted down a bit, they probably started to realize that they are next. Of course, we have no illusions, but we understand that all of them are getting ready for the next stage of war." -Aleksey Zhuravlyov aka Putin's Brain www.express.co.uk/news/world/1855445/ww3-poland-next-russia-target-vladimir-putin-ukraine-warDugin is known as “Putin’s brain.” Certainly not Zhuravlyov. Oh yea you're right.
|
|
|
Post by freonbale on Sept 13, 2024 0:29:39 GMT
I don't. Did you know that the primary bomber Russia uses is the Bear? And did you know that the Bear is a propeller aircraft? Slow, easy to spot, easy to shoot down. The F14, in the 1970s, was purpose built to carry the extremely heavy Phoenix missile, which could destroy the Bear in a single shot. 50 years later, a single cruise missile could do the job. And we have WAY more of them, than they have Bears. You could put one on a smaller plane, but Russia doesn't have a lot of them that can carry a nuclear weapon, and none of them are stealth (except the Felon, and their are only six). So I guess they could launch one of their nuclear missiles, but they are designed for long range attack, and need to gain extremely high altitude to be effective, which means they'd have to launch from deep in Siberia, which would be easy to detect, and I'll bet patriot batteries are already deployed for that eventuality. You could fire a tactical nuke (very small yield) from artillery, but supply lines into Ukraine have been decimated, and I doubt Russia would risk losing any nukes to Ukrainian guerilla attacks or drone strikes. So how are they going to do it? And would they hit their own land in Kursk? No. Ukraine invading Kursk was the red line. It was crossed, and Russia did NOTHING. Freon
I think we're talking about two different things. I totally agree that Putin will not attack Ukraine with nukes. I was following the line of Putin threatening other countries for interference.
The only time I actually believe there would be a chance of Putin launching nukes was if his life was personally being threatened due to the war coming directly for him.
My point is that Russia is still a major threat for mutually assured destruction even though I agree that most of their stockpile is likely unmaintained.
Oh. Then I misunderstood. Please ignore my response. Freon
|
|
|
Post by freonbale on Sept 13, 2024 0:32:21 GMT
Which means, in the end, preservation of Russia is still their paramount objective, and they KNOW the rest of the world will not tolerate a nuclear reaction unless the entire country is at risk. And that's not happening. I would agree. That's why I think Russia would probably respond with some other escalatory measure that wouldn't directly affect that. Eh, there may be some of that, but there are actual strategic objectives to this war. Have been for 10 years now. At this point, the people most worried about losing face seem to be the West, which is why they're telling Ukraine to set realistic goals. For either side really. That's why this is dangerous game. Interesting. What alternative escalatory measure might they employ? Chemical? Biological? Freon
|
|
|
Post by rabbitreborn on Sept 13, 2024 0:32:40 GMT
Why would Poland be a target? I think people just use that example to play off the worn out WW2 analogy. What would be the strategic reason to invade Poland? They don't have any resources that Russia wants. And Russia has Kaliningrad Oblast. And Poland's membership in Nato affects neither of those; unlike Ukraine. Also, if you look at Russia's interventions or threats of intervention - Kazakhstan, Georgia, Moldova, Ukraine - there is a common justification: large Russian minorities. Even better if those minorities start separatist movements: Crimea, Donbas, Transnistria. None of which Poland has. That they wouldn't fare well. Pretty sure that's Russia's read too which is why they didn't do anything about Serbia (not to mention their struggles in Chechnya at the time). Its the why of the entire war.. Russia shifting their borders out to plug the gaps. Skip to a minute in. www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkuhWA9GdCoYes, I agree Russia would fair poorly in a direct confrontation with NATO. If Ukraine is just phase 1 of an overall plan that includes Poland and Russia has no chance of winning a conventional war with Poland/NATO, then that's the scenario where nuclear war becomes possible. Avoiding that at any reasonable cost is the goal. Do you think the US lifting restrictions on Ukraine using long range missiles provided by NATO to attack Russia is “avoiding” escalation? That’s the point of the thread. Obviously the restrictions were put in place originally for a reason, and that was to avoid escalation. Was that wrong? Is it no longer an escalation?
|
|
RWB
Legend
Posts: 12,793
|
Post by RWB on Sept 13, 2024 2:52:18 GMT
Yeah, not really. This has been a limited war since 2014.
So, the stage is already being set for conceding territory to Russia at the very least.
It's a limited war in Ukraine. That's the whole point. But would it continue to be limited if Poland were the target? What's our read on how Russia fares in a direct confrontation with NATO? So you think giving Ukraine long range missiles to fire into Russia is a limited war?
|
|
|
Post by johnnybgood on Sept 13, 2024 2:59:04 GMT
Praise Isreal and Ukraine
|
|