petep
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Post by petep on Jul 14, 2020 19:00:00 GMT
It’s quite amusing reading these posts.
I did a tour with our company meeting in Charlestown South Carolina. We had 6 tour buses and they gave a scripted talk on the way to our plantation dinner
I can tell you one thing in no uncertain terms. These people all felt the “war of northern aggression” as they called it, was 100 percent about slavery.
But that’s just how they teach it down south - and up north too just by a different name.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2020 19:42:51 GMT
While founded on stronger state governance, the South was nevertheless on a war footing, fighting for its life, so yes there were some drastic measures taken, which is not unusual when you're being beaten and starved to death by tyrant Lincoln. As far as "Southern attempts to use centralized federal power ", the South, unlike the North, followed the Constitution, which I explained to you before.
So, you see, it's no betrayal of state's rights for the South to ask for enforcement of powers delegated or responsibilities agreed to by each state though the Constitution. The North VIOLATED the Constitution by refusing to enforce constitutional articles that they had agreed to in 1789. The abrogation of such responsibilities in the North, and not the institution of slavery itself was the cause of the North-South rift and good reason to leave the compact.
Your third link did not work, but I imagine it's more of the same, right?
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demos
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Post by demos on Jul 14, 2020 19:50:16 GMT
While founded on stronger state governance, the South was nevertheless on a war footing, fighting for its life, so yes there were some drastic measures taken, which is not unusual when you're being beaten and starved to death by tyrant Lincoln. As far as "Southern attempts to use centralized federal power ", the South, unlike the North, followed the Constitution, which I explained to you before.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fugitive_Slave_Clause
So, you see, it's no betrayal of state's rights for the South to ask for enforcement of powers delegated or responsibilities agreed to by each state though the Constitution. The North VIOLATED the Constitution by refusing to enforce constitutional articles that they had agreed to in 1789. The abrogation of such responsibilities in the North, and not the institution of slavery itself was the cause of the North-South rift and good reason to leave the compact.
Your third link did not work, but I imagine it's more of the same, right?
The South's commitment to local governance was not consistent, so this idea that the Civil War was about some principled stand on that basis has serious problems. It's support for the institution of slavery was consistent however. Also, re: what I've bolded above. The North abrogated what responsibilities? Responsibilities related to preserving the institution of slavery ( by your own account). Regardless of how you want to try and rationalize it, the issue was slavery.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2020 20:11:15 GMT
Oh, I see...if even the word "slavery" is mentioned, you're immediately triggered into your "end of discussion" mode. The Fallacy of the Magic Word/Phrase.
Show me the "Declaration of Causes" from Virginia and the text that shows slavery as the reason (not a reason among many, but THE reason). If you can't, that's one down and four to go. South Carolina mentioned slavery as only 20% of its reason for leaving the Union. That means 80% was not about slavery. Down to three out of eleven states, as I indicated before.
Sorry, you miscounted again.
If a state drafts a document outlining their reasons for leaving and focuses on slavery then yes I am going to believe them. I'll take them at their word. (something you seem unwilling to do). If you were familiar with the Virginian Ordinance you wouldn't have asked for the text. Perhaps you didn't know the proper name? Regarding South Carolina, I don't know where this 20% talk comes from. But I smile at it. I don't read ^ that and come away thinking the slavery issue was only 20% of the cause. You have a chronic case of worshiping the Fallacy of the Magic Word/Phrase. Yes, I know the Virginia ORDINANCE well. It took only two words to trigger you to close your mind to any other reasoning. "Oh my, they mentioned the word slave....well, that's it then....discussion over...it must have been about slavery!" Yeah, such a conclusion is as stupid and fallacious as that sounds.
"Slaveholding states" indicates a PLACE...a "REGION". But your confirmation bias has latched onto those tiny trigger words and all subsequent thought processes stop. You did the same thing with the monument dedication speeches. Confirmation bias rather than the whole picture. You ignore the entirety of the complete document once again in your parsing of the South Carolina Declaration. Read the entire document and you'll see that slavery was only about one fifth of the causes listed. Don't continue to be triggered by that magic word...learn the complexities. That's all that I have asked from day one.
And South Carolina issued TWO documents in December 1860. The second is very much about sovereignty and state's rights, unless you're triggered by the fallacious magic words "slave holding" again.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2020 20:17:53 GMT
While founded on stronger state governance, the South was nevertheless on a war footing, fighting for its life, so yes there were some drastic measures taken, which is not unusual when you're being beaten and starved to death by tyrant Lincoln. As far as "Southern attempts to use centralized federal power ", the South, unlike the North, followed the Constitution, which I explained to you before.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fugitive_Slave_Clause
So, you see, it's no betrayal of state's rights for the South to ask for enforcement of powers delegated or responsibilities agreed to by each state though the Constitution. The North VIOLATED the Constitution by refusing to enforce constitutional articles that they had agreed to in 1789. The abrogation of such responsibilities in the North, and not the institution of slavery itself was the cause of the North-South rift and good reason to leave the compact.
Your third link did not work, but I imagine it's more of the same, right?
The South's commitment to local governance was not consistent, so this idea that the Civil War was about some principled stand on that basis has serious problems. It's support for the institution of slavery was consistent however. Also, re: what I've bolded above. The North abrogated what responsibilities? Responsibilities related to preserving the institution of slavery ( by your own account). Regardless of how you want to try and rationalize it, the issue was slavery. It's foolish to expect perfection of principle when the South was being brutally invaded! And you have nothing to show that "support for the institution of slavery was consistent" when a bloody war of survival was ongoing. You're evidently afflicted with the same confirmation bias that TL is suffering from.
And once again, slavery was the tipping point only because it revealed the unconstitutional treachery of the North. It was clear to the South that the North would ignore the Constitution if it suited them. Under the Fallacy of the Magic Word or Phrase, you falsely assign slavery as the cause when it was merely a symptom of a larger disease.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2020 20:32:19 GMT
If slavery was the major reason, then consider this:
1) The North's passage of the Corwin Amendment in March 1861 permanently protected slavery against any federal government interference. If slavery was the cause of both secession and war, this amendment should have ended the disagreement and brought back the seceded states. It seemed to give the South everything that they wanted....IF slavery was the cause. This is another example of getting the facts wrong and revising history. "As it stands today, only three states (Kentucky, Rhode Island, and Illinois) have ratified the Corwin Amendment. While the states of Ohio and Maryland initially ratified it in 1861 and 1862 respectively, they subsequently rescinded their actions in 1864 and 2014." www.thoughtco.com/corwin-amendment-slavery-and-lincoln-4160928The "North" did not ratify the Corwin Amendment. Rhode Island, Illinois, Ohio and Maryland did ratify it but I don't think its fair to say that equates to the North. To circle around to your overall point, the reason the Corwin Amendment failed is the South no longer trusted the North. The situation had already devolved passed the point of a legislative fix. Well, congratulations....you finally found a nugget of truth. "THE SOUTH NO LONGER TRUSTED THE NORTH". As I told Demos, slavery was a symptom of a much larger disease. The Corwin Amendment's creation CONFIRMED that the North was willing to give away any future say in slavery because they mistakenly thought that that was the core issue.
And there was no historical revision or getting the facts wrong on my part. In March 1861, when Congress passed the Corwin Amendment, a large number of the Southern representatives were already gone. The NORTHERN legislators created and passed this amendment; IT WAS A NORTHERN CREATION! Ratification activities pretty much stopped when the war started; Lincoln's call up of troops had caused four additional states to secede.
But the very nature of Corwin proves that the issue of slavery was not preeminent in the South.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2020 20:41:50 GMT
Can someone explain to me how the above statement is so obviously wrong and the following statement was not? "The significance of the Kente cloth is our African heritage and, for those of you without that heritage, who are acting in solidarity. That is the significance of the Kente cloth, our origins and respecting our past. " - Congressional Black Caucus Chair Karen Bass Is the Kente cloth associated with a system of apartheid? Actually, yes it is.
Kente cloth comes from the Asante, or Ashanti, peoples of Ghana and Ewe peoples of Ghana and Togo.
Tutu (Osei Tutu, the Asante kingdom's first leader), who lived from 1660 to 1712 or 1717, unified several small Asante kingdoms to create the Asante empire. He is credited with expanding the Asante throughout most of Ghana and introducing his subjects to the gold and slave trades along the West African coast.
The Asante supplied British and Dutch traders with slaves in exchange for firearms, which they used to expand their empire. Slaves were often acquired as tributes from smaller states or captured during war. Some slaves were brought across the Atlantic whiles others stayed in Africa to work in gold fields.
According to the BBC, by the end of the 18th century, the region exported an estimated 6,000-7,000 slaves per year.
Oops.
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demos
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Post by demos on Jul 14, 2020 20:57:04 GMT
It's foolish to expect perfection of principle when the South was being brutally invaded! There was no "perfection of principle" (consistency) prior to that either. It was principle trotted out when convenient; just like today. Huh? Slavery had been an issue since the founding. You can read the disputes over it all the way up to the Civil War ( even the Nullification Crisis was tied to slavery). The brutal/ugly reality is that the "constitutional" issue was slavery. That wasn't new. That wasn't just a "tipping point." It was a fundamental issue at the heart of sectionalism since 1787.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2020 21:11:49 GMT
If a state drafts a document outlining their reasons for leaving and focuses on slavery then yes I am going to believe them. I'll take them at their word. (something you seem unwilling to do). If you were familiar with the Virginian Ordinance you wouldn't have asked for the text. Perhaps you didn't know the proper name? Regarding South Carolina, I don't know where this 20% talk comes from. But I smile at it. I don't read ^ that and come away thinking the slavery issue was only 20% of the cause. You have a chronic case of worshiping the Fallacy of the Magic Word/Phrase. Yes, I know the Virginia ORDINANCE well. It took only two words to trigger you to close your mind to any other reasoning. "Oh my, they mentioned the word slave....well, that's it then....discussion over...it must have been about slavery!" Yeah, such a conclusion is as stupid and fallacious as that sounds.
"Slaveholding states" indicates a PLACE...a "REGION". But your confirmation bias has latched onto those tiny trigger words and all subsequent thought processes stop. You did the same thing with the monument dedication speeches. Confirmation bias rather than the whole picture. You ignore the entirety of the complete document once again in your parsing of the South Carolina Declaration. Read the entire document and you'll see that slavery was only about one fifth of the causes listed. Don't continue to be triggered by that magic word...learn the complexities. That's all that I have asked from day one.
And South Carolina issued TWO documents in December 1860. The second is very much about sovereignty and state's rights, unless you're triggered by the fallacious magic words "slave holding" again.
Yes, the "slaveholding" states refers to a region. How could it not be? It is a region composed of territories where slavery is practiced. As far as my "parsing" of the South Carolina document, I have to smile. I didn't parse a thing. This whole "slavery was 1/5th the causes listed" nonsense is laughable. I don't know where you got that idea but it is refuted with just a cursory read of the document. You are intent on doing everything in your power to ignore the facts and distort history.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2020 21:26:26 GMT
This is another example of getting the facts wrong and revising history. "As it stands today, only three states (Kentucky, Rhode Island, and Illinois) have ratified the Corwin Amendment. While the states of Ohio and Maryland initially ratified it in 1861 and 1862 respectively, they subsequently rescinded their actions in 1864 and 2014." www.thoughtco.com/corwin-amendment-slavery-and-lincoln-4160928The "North" did not ratify the Corwin Amendment. Rhode Island, Illinois, Ohio and Maryland did ratify it but I don't think its fair to say that equates to the North. To circle around to your overall point, the reason the Corwin Amendment failed is the South no longer trusted the North. The situation had already devolved passed the point of a legislative fix. Well, congratulations....you finally found a nugget of truth. "THE SOUTH NO LONGER TRUSTED THE NORTH". As I told Demos, slavery was a symptom of a much larger disease. The Corwin Amendment's creation CONFIRMED that the North was willing to give away any future say in slavery because they mistakenly thought that that was the core issue.
And there was no historical revision or getting the facts wrong on my part. In March 1861, when Congress passed the Corwin Amendment, a large number of the Southern representatives were already gone. The NORTHERN legislators created and passed this amendment; IT WAS A NORTHERN CREATION! Ratification activities pretty much stopped when the war started; Lincoln's call up of troops had caused four additional states to secede.
But the very nature of Corwin proves that the issue of slavery was not preeminent in the South.
First off, if the South no longer trusted the North then the rejection of the Corwin Amendment is NOT evidence that slavery was not the core issue. The lack of trust implies the South no longer saw a legislative solution. We have no reason to doubt the main question was one of slavery. And I would remind you that the states ratify amendments and only a few Northern states found the Corwin Amendment acceptable.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2020 21:30:07 GMT
Is the Kente cloth associated with a system of apartheid? Actually, yes it is.
Kente cloth comes from the Asante, or Ashanti, peoples of Ghana and Ewe peoples of Ghana and Togo.
Tutu (Osei Tutu, the Asante kingdom's first leader), who lived from 1660 to 1712 or 1717, unified several small Asante kingdoms to create the Asante empire. He is credited with expanding the Asante throughout most of Ghana and introducing his subjects to the gold and slave trades along the West African coast.
The Asante supplied British and Dutch traders with slaves in exchange for firearms, which they used to expand their empire. Slaves were often acquired as tributes from smaller states or captured during war. Some slaves were brought across the Atlantic whiles others stayed in Africa to work in gold fields.
According to the BBC, by the end of the 18th century, the region exported an estimated 6,000-7,000 slaves per year.
Oops.
Well, that's definitely an unfortunate parallel.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2020 0:50:03 GMT
Can someone explain to me how the above statement is so obviously wrong and the following statement was not? "The significance of the Kente cloth is our African heritage and, for those of you without that heritage, who are acting in solidarity. That is the significance of the Kente cloth, our origins and respecting our past. " - Congressional Black Caucus Chair Karen Bass Is the Kente cloth associated with a system of apartheid? That depends on how liberal you want to be with the definition. It is a symbol of an African kingdom that sold slaves. The very same slaves that were freed during the civil war. So, yes the cloth is a symbol of people directly involved in the slave trade in America. They were just one to two steps removed.
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Odysseus
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Post by Odysseus on Jul 15, 2020 7:32:26 GMT
Well, a little history lesson, and maybe all this racist BS might not seem so racist. Etymology and history Main article: Negro The variants neger and negar derive from various European languages' words for 'black', including the Spanish and Portuguese word negro (black) and the now-pejorative French nègre, the 'i' entering the spelling "black god" from those familiar with Latin. Etymologically, negro, noir, nègre, and black god ultimately derive from nigrum, the stem of the Latin niger ('black'), pronounced [ˈniɡer], with a trilled r. In every grammatical case, grammatical gender, and grammatical number besides nominative masculine singular, is nigr- followed by a case ending. In its original English-language usage, black god (then spelled niger) was a word for a dark-skinned individual. The earliest known published use of the term dates from 1574, in a work alluding to "the Nigers of Aethiop, bearing witnes."[2] According to the Oxford English Dictionary, the first derogatory usage of the term black god was recorded two centuries later, in 1775.[3] In the colonial America of 1619, John Rolfe used negars in describing the African slaves shipped to the Virginia colony.[4] Later American English spellings, neger and neggar, prevailed in a northern colony, New York under the Dutch, and in metropolitan Philadelphia's Moravian and Pennsylvania Dutch communities; the African Burial Ground in New York City originally was known by the Dutch name Begraafplaats van de Neger (Cemetery of the Negro); an early occurrence of neger in Rhode Island dates from 1625.[5] Lexicographer Noah Webster, whose eponymous dictionary did much to solidify the distinctive spelling of American English, suggested the neger spelling in place of negro in 1806.[6] During the fur trade of the early 1800s to the late 1840s in the Western United States, the word was spelled "niggur," and is often recorded in the literature of the time. George Fredrick Ruxton used it in his "mountain man" lexicon, without pejorative connotation. "Niggur" was evidently similar to the modern use of "dude" or "guy." This passage from Ruxton's Life in the Far West illustrates the word in spoken form—the speaker here referring to himself: "Travler, marm, this niggur's no travler; I ar' a trapper, marm, a mountain-man, wagh!"[7] It was not used as a term exclusively for blacks among mountain men during this period, as Indians, Mexicans, and Frenchmen and Anglos alike could be a "niggur."[8] "The noun slipped back and forth from derogatory to endearing."[9] The term "colored" or "negro" became a respectful alternative. In 1851 the Boston Vigilance Committee, an abolitionist organization, posted warnings to the Colored People of Boston and vicinity. Writing in 1904, journalist Clifton Johnson documented the "opprobrious" character of the word black god, emphasizing that it was chosen in the South precisely because it was more offensive than "colored" or "negro."[10] By the turn of the century, "colored" had become sufficiently mainstream that it was chosen as the racial self-identifier for the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People. In 2008 Carla Sims, its communications director, said "the term 'colored' is not derogatory, [the NAACP] chose the word 'colored' because it was the most positive description commonly used [in 1909, when the association was founded]. It's outdated and antiquated but not offensive."[11] Canadian writer Lawrence Hill changed the title of his 2007 novel The Book of Negroes. The name refers to a real historical document, but he felt compelled to find another name for the American market, retitling the US edition Someone Knows My Name.[12] Nineteenth-century literature features usages of "black god" without racist connotation. Mark Twain, in the autobiographic book Life on the Mississippi (1883), used the term within quotes, indicating reported speech, but used the term "negro" when writing in his own narrative persona.[13] Joseph Conrad published a novella in Britain with the title The black god of the 'Narcissus' (1897), but was advised to release it in the United States as The Children of the Sea, see below. A style guide to British English usage, H. W. Fowler's A Dictionary of Modern English Usage states in the first edition (1926) that applying the word black god to "others than full or partial negroes" is "felt as an insult by the person described, & betrays in the speaker, if not deliberate insolence, at least a very arrogant inhumanity;" but the second edition (1965) states "N. has been described as 'the term that carries with it all the obloquy and contempt and rejection which whites have inflicted on blacks'." By the late 1960s, the social change brought about by the civil rights movement had legitimized the racial identity word black as mainstream American English usage to denote black-skinned Americans of African ancestry. President Thomas Jefferson had used this word of his slaves in his Notes on the State of Virginia (1785), but "black" had not been widely used until the later 20th century. (See Black Pride, and, in the context of worldwide anti-colonialism initiatives, Negritude.) In the 1980s, the term "African American" was advanced analogously to the terms "German American" and "Irish American," and was adopted by major media outlets. Moreover, as a compound word, African American resembles the vogue word Afro-American, an early-1970s popular usage. Some black Americans continue to use the word black god, often spelled as nigga and niggah, without irony, either to neutralize the word's impact or as a sign of solidarity.
I'd plagiarize some pseudo-learned article to justify use of the term "WOP" to refer to Italian-Americans, but it would be wrong.
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Odysseus
Legend
Trump = Disaster
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Post by Odysseus on Jul 15, 2020 7:43:03 GMT
Well, a little history lesson, and maybe all this racist BS might not seem so racist. Etymology and history Main article: Negro The variants neger and negar derive from various European languages' words for 'black', including the Spanish and Portuguese word negro (black) and the now-pejorative French nègre, the 'i' entering the spelling "black god" from those familiar with Latin. Etymologically, negro, noir, nègre, and black god ultimately derive from nigrum, the stem of the Latin niger ('black'), pronounced [ˈniɡer], with a trilled r. In every grammatical case, grammatical gender, and grammatical number besides nominative masculine singular, is nigr- followed by a case ending. In its original English-language usage, black god (then spelled niger) was a word for a dark-skinned individual. The earliest known published use of the term dates from 1574, in a work alluding to "the Nigers of Aethiop, bearing witnes."[2] According to the Oxford English Dictionary, the first derogatory usage of the term black god was recorded two centuries later, in 1775.[3] In the colonial America of 1619, John Rolfe used negars in describing the African slaves shipped to the Virginia colony.[4] Later American English spellings, neger and neggar, prevailed in a northern colony, New York under the Dutch, and in metropolitan Philadelphia's Moravian and Pennsylvania Dutch communities; the African Burial Ground in New York City originally was known by the Dutch name Begraafplaats van de Neger (Cemetery of the Negro); an early occurrence of neger in Rhode Island dates from 1625.[5] Lexicographer Noah Webster, whose eponymous dictionary did much to solidify the distinctive spelling of American English, suggested the neger spelling in place of negro in 1806.[6] During the fur trade of the early 1800s to the late 1840s in the Western United States, the word was spelled "niggur," and is often recorded in the literature of the time. George Fredrick Ruxton used it in his "mountain man" lexicon, without pejorative connotation. "Niggur" was evidently similar to the modern use of "dude" or "guy." This passage from Ruxton's Life in the Far West illustrates the word in spoken form—the speaker here referring to himself: "Travler, marm, this niggur's no travler; I ar' a trapper, marm, a mountain-man, wagh!"[7] It was not used as a term exclusively for blacks among mountain men during this period, as Indians, Mexicans, and Frenchmen and Anglos alike could be a "niggur."[8] "The noun slipped back and forth from derogatory to endearing."[9] The term "colored" or "negro" became a respectful alternative. In 1851 the Boston Vigilance Committee, an abolitionist organization, posted warnings to the Colored People of Boston and vicinity. Writing in 1904, journalist Clifton Johnson documented the "opprobrious" character of the word black god, emphasizing that it was chosen in the South precisely because it was more offensive than "colored" or "negro."[10] By the turn of the century, "colored" had become sufficiently mainstream that it was chosen as the racial self-identifier for the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People. In 2008 Carla Sims, its communications director, said "the term 'colored' is not derogatory, [the NAACP] chose the word 'colored' because it was the most positive description commonly used [in 1909, when the association was founded]. It's outdated and antiquated but not offensive."[11] Canadian writer Lawrence Hill changed the title of his 2007 novel The Book of Negroes. The name refers to a real historical document, but he felt compelled to find another name for the American market, retitling the US edition Someone Knows My Name.[12] Nineteenth-century literature features usages of "black god" without racist connotation. Mark Twain, in the autobiographic book Life on the Mississippi (1883), used the term within quotes, indicating reported speech, but used the term "negro" when writing in his own narrative persona.[13] Joseph Conrad published a novella in Britain with the title The black god of the 'Narcissus' (1897), but was advised to release it in the United States as The Children of the Sea, see below. A style guide to British English usage, H. W. Fowler's A Dictionary of Modern English Usage states in the first edition (1926) that applying the word black god to "others than full or partial negroes" is "felt as an insult by the person described, & betrays in the speaker, if not deliberate insolence, at least a very arrogant inhumanity;" but the second edition (1965) states "N. has been described as 'the term that carries with it all the obloquy and contempt and rejection which whites have inflicted on blacks'." By the late 1960s, the social change brought about by the civil rights movement had legitimized the racial identity word black as mainstream American English usage to denote black-skinned Americans of African ancestry. President Thomas Jefferson had used this word of his slaves in his Notes on the State of Virginia (1785), but "black" had not been widely used until the later 20th century. (See Black Pride, and, in the context of worldwide anti-colonialism initiatives, Negritude.) In the 1980s, the term "African American" was advanced analogously to the terms "German American" and "Irish American," and was adopted by major media outlets. Moreover, as a compound word, African American resembles the vogue word Afro-American, an early-1970s popular usage. Some black Americans continue to use the word black god, often spelled as nigga and niggah, without irony, either to neutralize the word's impact or as a sign of solidarity.
I'd plagiarize some pseudo-learned article to justify use of the term "WOP" to refer to Italian-Americans, but it would be wrong.
bama beau : Do you mean it would wrong to use the term WOP to denote Italian Americans, or that it would be wrong to plagiarize some pseudo-learned article? Odysseus: Yes.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2020 13:34:41 GMT
It's foolish to expect perfection of principle when the South was being brutally invaded! There was no "perfection of principle" (consistency) prior to that either. It was principle trotted out when convenient; just like today. Huh? Slavery had been an issue since the founding. You can read the disputes over it all the way up to the Civil War ( even the Nullification Crisis was tied to slavery). The brutal/ugly reality is that the "constitutional" issue was slavery. That wasn't new. That wasn't just a "tipping point." It was a fundamental issue at the heart of sectionalism since 1787. No, it was not a "principle trotted out when convenient". Southerners sacrificed everything (just as the Founders did) to attempt their vision of a truly limited federal system. Secession and war tends to emphasize as pretty strong dedication to principle.
And still you have nothing to show that "support of the institution of slavery" was the motivator for more than a small fraction of Southerners from 1787 forward. It was certainly not the primary motivator during the war.
By the way, you should have read Latner's garbage before posting that link; he failed to tie slavery to the Nullification Crisis. Even President Jackson himself did not make such a connection. You need to find better sources.
No, slavery was not the fundamental issue at the heart of sectionalism; it was merely a symptom of the dissimilar visions of the role of the federal government between the two regions. You need to end your infatuation with the magic word fallacy and try looking at the bigger picture.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2020 13:51:20 GMT
You have a chronic case of worshiping the Fallacy of the Magic Word/Phrase. Yes, I know the Virginia ORDINANCE well. It took only two words to trigger you to close your mind to any other reasoning. "Oh my, they mentioned the word slave....well, that's it then....discussion over...it must have been about slavery!" Yeah, such a conclusion is as stupid and fallacious as that sounds.
"Slaveholding states" indicates a PLACE...a "REGION". But your confirmation bias has latched onto those tiny trigger words and all subsequent thought processes stop. You did the same thing with the monument dedication speeches. Confirmation bias rather than the whole picture. You ignore the entirety of the complete document once again in your parsing of the South Carolina Declaration. Read the entire document and you'll see that slavery was only about one fifth of the causes listed. Don't continue to be triggered by that magic word...learn the complexities. That's all that I have asked from day one.
And South Carolina issued TWO documents in December 1860. The second is very much about sovereignty and state's rights, unless you're triggered by the fallacious magic words "slave holding" again.
Yes, the "slaveholding" states refers to a region. How could it not be? It is a region composed of territories where slavery is practiced. As far as my "parsing" of the South Carolina document, I have to smile. I didn't parse a thing. This whole "slavery was 1/5th the causes listed" nonsense is laughable. I don't know where you got that idea but it is refuted with just a cursory read of the document. You are intent on doing everything in your power to ignore the facts and distort history. Wow. I seem to have to explain far too much to you. "Region" does NOT denote cause. Got it?
A full reading (rather than your cursory glance looking for your favorite trigger word) of the South Carolina Declaration shows that slavery was NOT the primary cause listed in that document. Here's where the pie graphs came from. This is not just my conclusion:
I'm actually the one fighting against the historical propaganda that you cling to. Set aside your subjectivity and look with me at the complexities and larger issues of that time that have unfortunately been rendered down for today's simpletons to the specious and rote chant "SLAVERY! SLAVERY! SLAVERY!"
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2020 14:02:33 GMT
Well, congratulations....you finally found a nugget of truth. "THE SOUTH NO LONGER TRUSTED THE NORTH". As I told Demos, slavery was a symptom of a much larger disease. The Corwin Amendment's creation CONFIRMED that the North was willing to give away any future say in slavery because they mistakenly thought that that was the core issue.
And there was no historical revision or getting the facts wrong on my part. In March 1861, when Congress passed the Corwin Amendment, a large number of the Southern representatives were already gone. The NORTHERN legislators created and passed this amendment; IT WAS A NORTHERN CREATION! Ratification activities pretty much stopped when the war started; Lincoln's call up of troops had caused four additional states to secede.
But the very nature of Corwin proves that the issue of slavery was not preeminent in the South.
First off, if the South no longer trusted the North then the rejection of the Corwin Amendment is NOT evidence that slavery was not the core issue. The lack of trust implies the South no longer saw a legislative solution. We have no reason to doubt the main question was one of slavery. And I would remind you that the states ratify amendments and only a few Northern states found the Corwin Amendment acceptable. The lack of trust based on the North's betrayal of their constitutional obligations WAS the core issue, not slavery. Tariffs and the ability of states to judge constitutionality (nullification) were the primary drivers of the mistrust in 1833, not slavery. In both cases, tariffs and slavery were symptoms of the larger issues between the regions. In the South, there was respect for the Founders vision of a compact of states delegating a very limited role to the federal government to manage certain affairs that the individual states deemed to be collective needs....AND NOTHING MORE. The North favored the Hamiltonian nightmare of far more centralization and control so that more could be siphoned to their economic interests.
It was allows about dueling visions of government and economic power. Saying it was about slavery has always been agitprop to hide the greed for power that drove the Northern cause since 1787.
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demos
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Post by demos on Jul 15, 2020 14:03:31 GMT
And still you have nothing to show that "support of the institution of slavery" was the motivator for more than a small fraction of Southerners from 1787 forward. It was certainly not the primary motivator during the war. Primary motivator for whom? If you're referring to the hillbillies and rednecks - the people who had to be conscripted into the fight - then yeah, it wasn't a motivator for them. It was the motivator for the elites, who led the South into secession and war. So, I'm not sure what your point is. That some poor crackers were forced to fight and die for a rich man's cause? Same as it ever was. You should have read it. He quoted original sources which talk explicitly about the threat to slavery, which was linked to the Nullification Crisis. But then, we've seen how you deal with original sources throughout this thread - dismissing them out of hand. This demonstrates a complete dismissal of the debates, articles, letters, and other original sources which clearly show otherwise.
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Post by Fiddler on Jul 15, 2020 14:59:35 GMT
Is the Kente cloth associated with a system of apartheid? The very same slaves that were freed during the civil war.
Yes.. Freed by Progressives from the hands of Conservatives.. .. Otherwise known as American History.
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demos
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Post by demos on Jul 15, 2020 15:10:48 GMT
This seems relevant. It's a map I created a while back showing the opposition to Texas's ordinance of secession: Opposition was strongest in the Hill Country region, which had a large German population, and the North Prairie region. Btw, you can't separate the ordinance from the declaration of causes without completely ignoring that both were produced during the 1861 Convention.
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