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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2020 18:35:57 GMT
Jul 13, 2020 13:54:04 GMT -4 TowardLiberty saidYou have no where to go in this discussion so you have resorted to comparing farts to dedication ceremonies. And you are ignore the words on monuments, in dedication speeches, in the articles and ordinances of secession, etc. You care nothing about the facts, or about being reasonable or about finding the truth. You only care about defending the south, even if there is no defense ready at hand. You will invent one, even if it is stupid and silly. I'm addressing the absurdity of your inane premise with an equal amount of absurdity. Didn't you get that? Your repeated logical fallacy invites comparisons to a noxious rectal discharge, so why not? Makes about as much sense as what you have said about Southern motivations.
And you ignore the scarcity of evidence supporting your tirade, and ignore the statistical failure of what little evidence you have provided. You've provided no words on monuments (laughably proposing that one pair of water fountains are the "message"), given us only tiny slivers of a few dedication speeches and you still continue to confuse the ordinances with the handful of declarations of causes!
You definitely are courting absurdity but its not helping your case. There is nothing absurd about looking at dedication speeches for context.
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demos
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Post by demos on Jul 13, 2020 18:38:10 GMT
The only way one can argue that the Civil War was not about slavery is to completely divorce it from any historical context.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2020 18:43:19 GMT
Jul 13, 2020 13:54:04 GMT -4 TowardLiberty saidYou have no where to go in this discussion so you have resorted to comparing farts to dedication ceremonies. And you are ignore the words on monuments, in dedication speeches, in the articles and ordinances of secession, etc. You care nothing about the facts, or about being reasonable or about finding the truth. You only care about defending the south, even if there is no defense ready at hand. You will invent one, even if it is stupid and silly. you still continue to confuse the ordinances with the handful of declarations of causes!
No, I look to *both* the ordinances and the declarations for guidance. And you look to minimize both, claiming they are only of the "1%."
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Post by Fiddler on Jul 13, 2020 18:53:46 GMT
Here's more of Fid's whataboutism to deal with. Congratulations .. You've elevated "Missing the point" to an art form .. What you mislabel a whataboutism is a clue to the insanity being proffered under the guise of heritage/history. Loyalists are the Revolutionary equivalent of Confederates.. Enemies of the cause. Where are the memorials to American Loyalists?
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Post by Fiddler on Jul 13, 2020 18:57:01 GMT
It concerns me that I have to keep explaining the facts to you. The alleged "fifth" was nothing more than Virginia's Ordinance of Secession that didn't go into any detail on causes. Of the four remaining, South Carolina's is only 20% about slavery. That leave three. Your struggles with math are disturbing.
Your exaggerations reveal your desperation on this topic. No one is claiming that "99% of the southern population was actually a bunch of closet abolitionists" any more than the vast majority of Northerners were abolitionists. Hell, the NORTH passed (and several states ratified) a constitutional amendment in March 1861 to permanently preserve slavery where it existed!
And, by that question, you just destroyed your own argument. If secession had just been about slavery, the remaining 94% (6% owned slaves, but 5% of that number owned 5 or less), the rest of the population would have risen up against them. There's a reason why Southerners viewed their actions as the "Second American Revolution"...they saw a central power taking away their local and state autonomy just like George III did. It wasn't about slavery, at least not to the majority of Southerners. Nor were their monuments about white supremacy. Southerners supported separation, not slavery; that's why they fought so fiercely in 1861-1865.
I don't think he gets this...he should read about why and how roger williams founded Rhode Island...but he is not big on reading links to facts and data these days...he used to be, before the constipation set in...
In the periods of time when you're not lipping off reflexively.. Look up some of those facts and data you speak of and post them ..
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2020 21:00:33 GMT
It concerns me that I have to keep explaining the facts to you. The alleged "fifth" was nothing more than Virginia's Ordinance of Secession that didn't go into any detail on causes. Of the four remaining, South Carolina's is only 20% about slavery. That leave three. Your struggles with math are disturbing.
You should be concerned. You've got a serious issue with counting and logic. I'll count them out for you. These are the states that mentioned slavery as a reason for secession. 1. South Carolina 2. Mississippi 3. Georgia 4. Texas 5. Virginia Oh, I see...if even the word "slavery" is mentioned, you're immediately triggered into your "end of discussion" mode. The Fallacy of the Magic Word/Phrase.
Show me the "Declaration of Causes" from Virginia and the text that shows slavery as the reason (not a reason among many, but THE reason). If you can't, that's one down and four to go. South Carolina mentioned slavery as only 20% of its reason for leaving the Union. That means 80% was not about slavery. Down to three out of eleven states, as I indicated before.
Sorry, you miscounted again.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2020 21:10:11 GMT
I'm addressing the absurdity of your inane premise with an equal amount of absurdity. Didn't you get that? Your repeated logical fallacy invites comparisons to a noxious rectal discharge, so why not? Makes about as much sense as what you have said about Southern motivations.
And you ignore the scarcity of evidence supporting your tirade, and ignore the statistical failure of what little evidence you have provided. You've provided no words on monuments (laughably proposing that one pair of water fountains are the "message"), given us only tiny slivers of a few dedication speeches and you still continue to confuse the ordinances with the handful of declarations of causes!
You definitely are courting absurdity but its not helping your case. There is nothing absurd about looking at dedication speeches for context. Your repeated fallacies are destroying YOUR case. As I noted to you, the speeches had no permanency for each monument and some alleged context can be speciously drawn from a thousand things on that dedication day, as I have shown.
These markers were typically erected by an organization of Southern women; does that mean that these are monuments to those women based on that particular context? Of course not! Yet another clear contextual example showing why tying the speeches to the monument is logically flawed and nonsensical.
The speeches did not match the messages on the monuments, so therefore the speeches were not intended as a furtherance of the monument's meaning. READ. THE. DAMN. MONUMENT.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2020 21:14:44 GMT
The only way one can argue that the Civil War was not about slavery is to completely divorce it from any historical context. Not true. Historical context and a depth of knowledge of the historical complexities of that time reveal that the War Between the States was NOT about slavery.
Using the Northern propaganda that it was a "civil war" bespeaks of ignorance of the context and nuances of that conflict.
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demos
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Post by demos on Jul 13, 2020 21:23:52 GMT
Not true. Historical context and a depth of knowledge of the historical complexities of that time reveal that the War Between the States was NOT about slavery. To believe this you have to completely ignore antebellum history, such as the Missouri Compromise, the Kansas-Nebraska Act, the Dred Scott decision, tariffs, etc., et al. Slavery was at the root of all these issues between the North and South.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2020 21:24:16 GMT
Here's more of Fid's whataboutism to deal with. Congratulations .. You've elevated "Missing the point" to an art form .. What you mislabel a whataboutism is a clue to the insanity being proffered under the guise of heritage/history. Loyalists are the Revolutionary equivalent of Confederates.. Enemies of the cause. Where are the memorials to American Loyalists? You're even clueless on who the players were in each of those narratives. Did the loyalists break away from a tyrant...i.e. secede? No, the Patriots and later, the Confederates, did that. Did the loyalists fight an invasion from a foreign power? Nope, Patriots and Confederates again. Did the loyalists form a separate government after declaring independence from the old country? Not at all, just the Patriots and Confederates.
After the War Between the States, it was the UNIONISTS of the South that got no monuments, just like the Loyalists and Tories from the colonial period.
Patriot = Confederate. King George III = Lincoln. Blue Bellies = Lobsterbacks.
Got it or do you want me to school you on the fallacies of your lame whataboutism once again?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2020 21:36:29 GMT
Not true. Historical context and a depth of knowledge of the historical complexities of that time reveal that the War Between the States was NOT about slavery. To believe this you have to completely ignore antebellum history, such as the Missouri Compromise, the Kansas-Nebraska Act, the Dred Scott decision, tariffs, etc., et al. Slavery was at the root of all these issues between the North and South. That's shallow thinking, friend. You see only the surface, not the depths. All of those were about federal vs. local control and maintaining a regional balance as a check against the extra constitutional usurpation of power by the federal government. Slavery was the pivot point NOT the reason behind these conflicts.
Using today's evil but legal issue, if the government said that you can get an abortion in New York, but abortion outlawed in any new state that joins the Union. If you move to the new state, you're out of luck. Dred Scott was comparable to Roe v. Wade; it both solidified a legal practice and dehumanized the victim; if you hate Dred Scott then Roe should be hated for the same reason.
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demos
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Post by demos on Jul 13, 2020 21:50:11 GMT
That's shallow thinking, friend. You see only the surface, not the depths. All of those were about federal vs. local control and maintaining a regional balance as a check against the extra constitutional usurpation of power by the federal government. Slavery was the pivot point NOT the reason behind these conflicts. If it's the pivot around which those conflicts turned, it was the major reason for them.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2020 23:46:43 GMT
The significance of the Confederate statues is our Southern heritage. That is the significance of the Confederate statues, our origins and respecting our past. Can someone explain to me how the above statement is so obviously wrong and the following statement was not? "The significance of the Kente cloth is our African heritage and, for those of you without that heritage, who are acting in solidarity. That is the significance of the Kente cloth, our origins and respecting our past. " - Congressional Black Caucus Chair Karen Bass This ought to be good.
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Post by archie on Jul 14, 2020 2:41:15 GMT
Well, a little history lesson, and maybe all this racist BS might not seem so racist. Etymology and history Main article: Negro The variants neger and negar derive from various European languages' words for 'black', including the Spanish and Portuguese word negro (black) and the now-pejorative French nègre, the 'i' entering the spelling "*****" from those familiar with Latin. Etymologically, negro, noir, nègre, and ***** ultimately derive from nigrum, the stem of the Latin niger ('black'), pronounced [ˈniɡer], with a trilled r. In every grammatical case, grammatical gender, and grammatical number besides nominative masculine singular, is nigr- followed by a case ending. In its original English-language usage, ***** (then spelled niger) was a word for a dark-skinned individual. The earliest known published use of the term dates from 1574, in a work alluding to "the Nigers of Aethiop, bearing witnes."[2] According to the Oxford English Dictionary, the first derogatory usage of the term ***** was recorded two centuries later, in 1775.[3] In the colonial America of 1619, John Rolfe used negars in describing the African slaves shipped to the Virginia colony.[4] Later American English spellings, neger and neggar, prevailed in a northern colony, New York under the Dutch, and in metropolitan Philadelphia's Moravian and Pennsylvania Dutch communities; the African Burial Ground in New York City originally was known by the Dutch name Begraafplaats van de Neger (Cemetery of the Negro); an early occurrence of neger in Rhode Island dates from 1625.[5] Lexicographer Noah Webster, whose eponymous dictionary did much to solidify the distinctive spelling of American English, suggested the neger spelling in place of negro in 1806.[6] During the fur trade of the early 1800s to the late 1840s in the Western United States, the word was spelled "niggur," and is often recorded in the literature of the time. George Fredrick Ruxton used it in his "mountain man" lexicon, without pejorative connotation. "Niggur" was evidently similar to the modern use of "dude" or "guy." This passage from Ruxton's Life in the Far West illustrates the word in spoken form—the speaker here referring to himself: "Travler, marm, this niggur's no travler; I ar' a trapper, marm, a mountain-man, wagh!"[7] It was not used as a term exclusively for blacks among mountain men during this period, as Indians, Mexicans, and Frenchmen and Anglos alike could be a "niggur."[8] "The noun slipped back and forth from derogatory to endearing."[9] The term "colored" or "negro" became a respectful alternative. In 1851 the Boston Vigilance Committee, an abolitionist organization, posted warnings to the Colored People of Boston and vicinity. Writing in 1904, journalist Clifton Johnson documented the "opprobrious" character of the word *****, emphasizing that it was chosen in the South precisely because it was more offensive than "colored" or "negro."[10] By the turn of the century, "colored" had become sufficiently mainstream that it was chosen as the racial self-identifier for the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People. In 2008 Carla Sims, its communications director, said "the term 'colored' is not derogatory, [the NAACP] chose the word 'colored' because it was the most positive description commonly used [in 1909, when the association was founded]. It's outdated and antiquated but not offensive."[11] Canadian writer Lawrence Hill changed the title of his 2007 novel The Book of Negroes. The name refers to a real historical document, but he felt compelled to find another name for the American market, retitling the US edition Someone Knows My Name.[12] Nineteenth-century literature features usages of "*****" without racist connotation. Mark Twain, in the autobiographic book Life on the Mississippi (1883), used the term within quotes, indicating reported speech, but used the term "negro" when writing in his own narrative persona.[13] Joseph Conrad published a novella in Britain with the title The ***** of the 'Narcissus' (1897), but was advised to release it in the United States as The Children of the Sea, see below. A style guide to British English usage, H. W. Fowler's A Dictionary of Modern English Usage states in the first edition (1926) that applying the word ***** to "others than full or partial negroes" is "felt as an insult by the person described, & betrays in the speaker, if not deliberate insolence, at least a very arrogant inhumanity;" but the second edition (1965) states "N. has been described as 'the term that carries with it all the obloquy and contempt and rejection which whites have inflicted on blacks'." By the late 1960s, the social change brought about by the civil rights movement had legitimized the racial identity word black as mainstream American English usage to denote black-skinned Americans of African ancestry. President Thomas Jefferson had used this word of his slaves in his Notes on the State of Virginia (1785), but "black" had not been widely used until the later 20th century. (See Black Pride, and, in the context of worldwide anti-colonialism initiatives, Negritude.) In the 1980s, the term "African American" was advanced analogously to the terms "German American" and "Irish American," and was adopted by major media outlets. Moreover, as a compound word, African American resembles the vogue word Afro-American, an early-1970s popular usage. Some black Americans continue to use the word *****, often spelled as nigga and niggah, without irony, either to neutralize the word's impact or as a sign of solidarity.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2020 15:18:33 GMT
The significance of the Confederate statues is our Southern heritage. That is the significance of the Confederate statues, our origins and respecting our past. Can someone explain to me how the above statement is so obviously wrong and the following statement was not? "The significance of the Kente cloth is our African heritage and, for those of you without that heritage, who are acting in solidarity. That is the significance of the Kente cloth, our origins and respecting our past. " - Congressional Black Caucus Chair Karen Bass This ought to be good. I'm guessing that the leftists will run and hide rather than face such an uncomfortable conundrum. It requires both courage and integrity to show tolerance of symbols and icons of a heritage with which they disagree and perhaps even despise. The left's purge of Southern heritage shows that they have neither courage nor integrity.
Hateful, anti-Christian Deist Voltaire was wrong on many things, but his wit and wisdom was, nevertheless, correct sometimes:
And most applicable to our position on the motivations of the Confederacy:
- It is dangerous to be right in matters where established men are wrong.
- It is sad that often, to be a good patriot, one must be the enemy of the rest of mankind.
- What is tolerance? It is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly — that is the first law of nature.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2020 15:38:23 GMT
That's shallow thinking, friend. You see only the surface, not the depths. All of those were about federal vs. local control and maintaining a regional balance as a check against the extra constitutional usurpation of power by the federal government. Slavery was the pivot point NOT the reason behind these conflicts. If it's the pivot around which those conflicts turned, it was the major reason for them. If slavery was the major reason, then consider this:
1) The North's passage of the Corwin Amendment in March 1861 permanently protected slavery against any federal government interference. If slavery was the cause of both secession and war, this amendment should have ended the disagreement and brought back the seceded states. It seemed to give the South everything that they wanted....IF slavery was the cause.
2) Secession worsened what is claimed to be one of the areas of contention related to slavery; the Fugitive Slave Act. Upon the South's legal secession, the Northern states were no longer under any obligation to return any slaves who escaped North. If the conflict was about slavery, why would the South make this situation far worse?
3) Yet another bone of contention was the debate over the expansion of slavery into new territories and states. Secession ended any chance that such expansion would ever occur. If it had all been about slavery, why would the South give up this alleged central tenet of their grievance?
Each of these represent clear evidence that secession was not about slavery , but about local self governance and a return to the constitutional limitations that the Founders had created to prevent the expansion of federal power.
Slavery, like tariffs in 1832, just happened to be the tipping point in 1860. Not the cause.
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demos
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Post by demos on Jul 14, 2020 16:03:10 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2020 16:20:31 GMT
You should be concerned. You've got a serious issue with counting and logic. I'll count them out for you. These are the states that mentioned slavery as a reason for secession. 1. South Carolina 2. Mississippi 3. Georgia 4. Texas 5. Virginia Oh, I see...if even the word "slavery" is mentioned, you're immediately triggered into your "end of discussion" mode. The Fallacy of the Magic Word/Phrase.
Show me the "Declaration of Causes" from Virginia and the text that shows slavery as the reason (not a reason among many, but THE reason). If you can't, that's one down and four to go. South Carolina mentioned slavery as only 20% of its reason for leaving the Union. That means 80% was not about slavery. Down to three out of eleven states, as I indicated before.
Sorry, you miscounted again.
If a state drafts a document outlining their reasons for leaving and focuses on slavery then yes I am going to believe them. I'll take them at their word. (something you seem unwilling to do). If you were familiar with the Virginian Ordinance you wouldn't have asked for the text. Perhaps you didn't know the proper name? Regarding South Carolina, I don't know where this 20% talk comes from. But I smile at it. I don't read ^ that and come away thinking the slavery issue was only 20% of the cause.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2020 16:32:46 GMT
If it's the pivot around which those conflicts turned, it was the major reason for them. If slavery was the major reason, then consider this:
1) The North's passage of the Corwin Amendment in March 1861 permanently protected slavery against any federal government interference. If slavery was the cause of both secession and war, this amendment should have ended the disagreement and brought back the seceded states. It seemed to give the South everything that they wanted....IF slavery was the cause. This is another example of getting the facts wrong and revising history. "As it stands today, only three states (Kentucky, Rhode Island, and Illinois) have ratified the Corwin Amendment. While the states of Ohio and Maryland initially ratified it in 1861 and 1862 respectively, they subsequently rescinded their actions in 1864 and 2014." www.thoughtco.com/corwin-amendment-slavery-and-lincoln-4160928The "North" did not ratify the Corwin Amendment. Rhode Island, Illinois, Ohio and Maryland did ratify it but I don't think its fair to say that equates to the North. To circle around to your overall point, the reason the Corwin Amendment failed is the South no longer trusted the North. The situation had already devolved passed the point of a legislative fix.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2020 16:46:53 GMT
The significance of the Confederate statues is our Southern heritage. That is the significance of the Confederate statues, our origins and respecting our past. Can someone explain to me how the above statement is so obviously wrong and the following statement was not? "The significance of the Kente cloth is our African heritage and, for those of you without that heritage, who are acting in solidarity. That is the significance of the Kente cloth, our origins and respecting our past. " - Congressional Black Caucus Chair Karen Bass Is the Kente cloth associated with a system of apartheid?
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