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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2020 0:24:37 GMT
Pulling down statues? It’s a tradition that dates back to U.S. independence
King George III plunges from his plinth in this romanticized version of the July 9, 1776 event in New York City, watched by Native Americans. The actual statue featured the monarch in Roman garb, and Africans Americans may have assisted in its spontaneous destruction.
api.nationalgeographic.com/distribution/public/amp/history/2020/07/pulling-down-statues-tradition-dates-back-united-states-independenceIt looks like cancel culture was alive and well in the 17th and 18th centuries. lol But on a serious note, that final sentence hits hard. We should not be placated or satiated by merely symbolic gains. Its not enough to liberate Aunt Jemima. We also have make substantive changes in the realm of policy. And if we really want to drill down on the ultimates causes of the problem between the "underclasses" (be they white, black, brown or otherwise) and the police, we have to address the systems which tilt the economic game in favor of protected classes, at the detriment of whole swaths of the population. In other words, widespread economic opportunity and equity is a necessary part of the solution and getting there is going to be a long drawn out process, if it is possible at all.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2020 1:16:24 GMT
Is this really the same thing?
Were the Iraqis who toppled statues of Saddam participating in "cancel culture?"
Methinks there's a little creative license being taken on the concept.
Queshank
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2020 1:17:19 GMT
Is this really the same thing? Were the Iraqis who toppled statues of Saddam participating in "cancel culture?" Methinks there's a little creative license being taken on the concept. Queshank That was tongue in cheek.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2020 1:18:14 GMT
Is this really the same thing? Were the Iraqis who toppled statues of Saddam participating in "cancel culture?" Methinks there's a little creative license being taken on the concept. Queshank That was tongue in cheek.
Oh lol. I just read the clip not the whole article. Assumed they were referencing it in the article. My bad. Carry on.
Queshank
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2020 1:22:48 GMT
That was tongue in cheek.
Oh lol. I just read the clip not the whole article. Assumed they were referencing it in the article. My bad. Carry on.
Queshank
Yeah that would have kneecapped their analysis a bit.. lol
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bama beau
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Post by bama beau on Jul 5, 2020 5:01:14 GMT
Pulling down statues? It’s a tradition that dates back to U.S. independence
King George III plunges from his plinth in this romanticized version of the July 9, 1776 event in New York City, watched by Native Americans. The actual statue featured the monarch in Roman garb, and Africans Americans may have assisted in its spontaneous destruction.
api.nationalgeographic.com/distribution/public/amp/history/2020/07/pulling-down-statues-tradition-dates-back-united-states-independenceIt looks like cancel culture was alive and well in the 17th and 18th centuries. lol But on a serious note, that final sentence hits hard. We should not be placated or satiated by merely symbolic gains. Its not enough to liberate Aunt Jemima. We also have make substantive changes in the realm of policy. And if we really want to drill down on the ultimates causes of the problem between the "underclasses" (be they white, black, brown or otherwise) and the police, we have to address the systems which tilt the economic game in favor of protected classes, at the detriment of whole swaths of the population. In other words, widespread economic opportunity and equity is a necessary part of the solution and getting there is going to be a long drawn out process, if it is possible at all. Are you in the process of promulgating the School of Libertarian Progressivism? Or is it the countervailing other side of that coin, Progressive Libertarianism? If it comes down to market valuing, I'm going with the former. EDIT: I almost forgot: Fvck George III.
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Odysseus
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Post by Odysseus on Jul 5, 2020 8:02:39 GMT
Is this really the same thing? Were the Iraqis who toppled statues of Saddam participating in "cancel culture?" Methinks there's a little creative license being taken on the concept. Queshank That was tongue in cheek.
Well without reading any of it, seems to me that indeed the American Revolutionaries were rejecting the whole rotten system of British royalty and nobility. It's spelled out in our constitution, after all. No titles of nobility to be granted, ever.
Of course we've replaced it with a rotten system of ill-gotten wealth based power and capitalism, but at least one is not officially declared a superior being at birth. Donald Trump is a good example of how inherited wealth can warp our democratic system and inject into a position of power an idiotic clown wanna-be prince. Had Trump lived in the 1770's perhaps the founders would have discovered a quicker way to write him out.
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Post by crepe05 on Jul 5, 2020 13:51:02 GMT
Are you saying that since it dates back to the beginning of our nation, that makes it more acceptable? I don't believe that we should accept the taking/destroying of someone's possessions, no matter what the purpose. Surely there's another way to make the same point.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2020 15:57:44 GMT
Are you saying that since it dates back to the beginning of our nation, that makes it more acceptable? I don't believe that we should accept the taking/destroying of someone's possessions, no matter what the purpose. Surely there's another way to make the same point. I'm just saying there is a long tradition in the US of destroying symbols of oppression. I agree that the destruction of property is not ideal. I suggest a month long moratorium on bringing these monuments down. Let's give the people who care about them time to raise money and move them to private grounds. Is that a compromise that sounds good to you?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2020 16:01:51 GMT
Pulling down statues? It’s a tradition that dates back to U.S. independence
King George III plunges from his plinth in this romanticized version of the July 9, 1776 event in New York City, watched by Native Americans. The actual statue featured the monarch in Roman garb, and Africans Americans may have assisted in its spontaneous destruction.
api.nationalgeographic.com/distribution/public/amp/history/2020/07/pulling-down-statues-tradition-dates-back-united-states-independenceIt looks like cancel culture was alive and well in the 17th and 18th centuries. lol But on a serious note, that final sentence hits hard. We should not be placated or satiated by merely symbolic gains. Its not enough to liberate Aunt Jemima. We also have make substantive changes in the realm of policy. And if we really want to drill down on the ultimates causes of the problem between the "underclasses" (be they white, black, brown or otherwise) and the police, we have to address the systems which tilt the economic game in favor of protected classes, at the detriment of whole swaths of the population. In other words, widespread economic opportunity and equity is a necessary part of the solution and getting there is going to be a long drawn out process, if it is possible at all. Are you in the process of promulgating the School of Libertarian Progressivism? Or is it the countervailing other side of that coin, Progressive Libertarianism? If it comes down to market valuing, I'm going with the former. EDIT: I almost forgot: Fvck George III. Something like that, yes. I think it would be closer to the second choice, progressive libertarianism. Progressive ideas are moderating my libertarianism, not the other way around. My deeper answer is I think originary libertarianism (the ideas of people who built the movement as liberals, before libertarianism was a term) were already very progressive, anti-racist, abolitionist types.
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petep
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Post by petep on Jul 5, 2020 23:16:04 GMT
Is this really the same thing? Were the Iraqis who toppled statues of Saddam participating in "cancel culture?" Methinks there's a little creative license being taken on the concept. Queshank Exactly. We celebrated killing Hitler Should we have celebrated Jeffrey dahmers killings too? Do we really need to explain the difference or explain what is really going on with the radical rioters and looters.
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Post by phillip on Jul 6, 2020 0:28:53 GMT
I guess we've found Trump's goals for a 2nd term. Ignore a pandemic or how bad the economy really is and concentrate on building a garden full of statues. I can feel the winning!
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petep
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Post by petep on Jul 6, 2020 0:44:16 GMT
I guess we've found Trump's goals for a 2nd term. Ignore a pandemic or how bad the economy really is and concentrate on building a garden full of statues. I can feel the winning! I think it’s clear that rioters and looters do not get or spread covid. They are patriots according to some.
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Odysseus
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Post by Odysseus on Jul 6, 2020 3:04:29 GMT
I guess we've found Trump's goals for a 2nd term. Ignore a pandemic or how bad the economy really is and concentrate on building a garden full of statues. I can feel the winning! I think it’s clear that rioters and looters do not get or spread covid. They are patriots according to some. Anyone who has the presence of mind to watch coverage of the Trump rallies and the BLM protests will know right off the bat that the Trumpers by and large do not wear face masks in close indoor quarters, while the BLM protesters by and large wear face masks while social distancing outdoors.
Even an idiot like you should be able to see the difference.
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bama beau
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Post by bama beau on Jul 6, 2020 4:04:58 GMT
I think it’s clear that rioters and looters do not get or spread covid. They are patriots according to some. Anyone who has the presence of mind to watch coverage of the Trump rallies and the BLM protests will know right off the bat that the Trumpers by and large do not wear face masks in close indoor quarters, while the BLM protesters by and large wear face masks while social distancing outdoors.
Even an idiot like you should be able to see the difference.
Even some idiots not so much like him can't or don't want to see the difference. That's kind of what makes them idiots.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2020 13:30:12 GMT
Are you saying that since it dates back to the beginning of our nation, that makes it more acceptable? I don't believe that we should accept the taking/destroying of someone's possessions, no matter what the purpose. Surely there's another way to make the same point. I'm just saying there is a long tradition in the US of destroying symbols of oppression. I agree that the destruction of property is not ideal. I suggest a month long moratorium on bringing these monuments down. Let's give the people who care about them time to raise money and move them to private grounds. Is that a compromise that sounds good to you? Yes, I would like to see these statues moved rather than destroyed, but that would require the animals pulling them down to act normal and reasonable. Or better yet, leave them alone as normal humans have done for 100-120 years. Allow the monuments to "trigger" folks to find out the history for themselves, not hide it or dictate a conclusion to them before they look for themselves.
None of the Confederate statues are "symbols of oppression" as we established in a previous thread. The example that you provided above in your OP was one statue torn down during wartime to make bullets for the effort. In your mind, is that really the same as riotous snowflakes destroying monuments that they don't understand 120 years after they were erected?
Every Confederate monument represents an alternative interpretation of history; a differing opinion on the events and the people that participated. They enrich our understanding of the complexities of our history, which is why they are targeted for destruction. Every statue destroyed is an expression of the ignorance and intolerance by those who are in favor of eliminating any take on history that doesn't conform to the current political correctness.
Do you support moving other statues to "private grounds"? A Lincoln statue was removed in Boston and a Fredrick Douglas statue torn down in Rochester, NY. Move those to private grounds?
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petep
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Post by petep on Jul 6, 2020 14:18:25 GMT
I think it’s clear that rioters and looters do not get or spread covid. They are patriots according to some. Anyone who has the presence of mind to watch coverage of the Trump rallies and the BLM protests will know right off the bat that the Trumpers by and large do not wear face masks in close indoor quarters, while the BLM protesters by and large wear face masks while social distancing outdoors.
Even an idiot like you should be able to see the difference.
do you think we cant see the pics or vids...does this look like distancing to you? I cant scores without masks... www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-to-evaluate-coronavirus-risks-from-black-lives-matter-protests/
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2020 15:16:27 GMT
I'm just saying there is a long tradition in the US of destroying symbols of oppression. I agree that the destruction of property is not ideal. I suggest a month long moratorium on bringing these monuments down. Let's give the people who care about them time to raise money and move them to private grounds. Is that a compromise that sounds good to you? Yes, I would like to see these statues moved rather than destroyed, but that would require the animals pulling them down to act normal and reasonable. Or better yet, leave them alone as normal humans have done for 100-120 years. Allow the monuments to "trigger" folks to find out the history for themselves, not hide it or dictate a conclusion to them before they look for themselves.
None of the Confederate statues are "symbols of oppression" as we established in a previous thread. The example that you provided above in your OP was one statue torn down during wartime to make bullets for the effort. In your mind, is that really the same as riotous snowflakes destroying monuments that they don't understand 120 years after they were erected?
Every Confederate monument represents an alternative interpretation of history; a differing opinion on the events and the people that participated. They enrich our understanding of the complexities of our history, which is why they are targeted for destruction. Every statue destroyed is an expression of the ignorance and intolerance by those who are in favor of eliminating any take on history that doesn't conform to the current political correctness.
Do you support moving other statues to "private grounds"? A Lincoln statue was removed in Boston and a Fredrick Douglas statue torn down in Rochester, NY. Move those to private grounds?
I don't think leaving them alone is an option that is on the table. The conversation about the political nature of those confederate monuments is over. We found your arguments lacking when weighed next to the cold hard facts. We established that these monuments are indeed racist and political. You weren't convinced, but there is no evidence possible that would convince you of that. Moving on, I don't need BLM to make bullets out of statues to see the historical symmetry. Not *all* of those 16th and 17th century statue pull downs were done to make bullets. If a statue of Lincoln is bringing people grief and another group wants to fund the removal and care of it, I'm fine with that.
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Odysseus
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Post by Odysseus on Jul 6, 2020 19:13:36 GMT
It's called iconoclasm.
Most of America worships in the iconoclastic tradition: churches with no images of Jesus or saints or holy relics. Just plain crosses.
They put the "protest" into Protestantism.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2020 21:54:58 GMT
Yes, I would like to see these statues moved rather than destroyed, but that would require the animals pulling them down to act normal and reasonable. Or better yet, leave them alone as normal humans have done for 100-120 years. Allow the monuments to "trigger" folks to find out the history for themselves, not hide it or dictate a conclusion to them before they look for themselves.
None of the Confederate statues are "symbols of oppression" as we established in a previous thread. The example that you provided above in your OP was one statue torn down during wartime to make bullets for the effort. In your mind, is that really the same as riotous snowflakes destroying monuments that they don't understand 120 years after they were erected?
Every Confederate monument represents an alternative interpretation of history; a differing opinion on the events and the people that participated. They enrich our understanding of the complexities of our history, which is why they are targeted for destruction. Every statue destroyed is an expression of the ignorance and intolerance by those who are in favor of eliminating any take on history that doesn't conform to the current political correctness.
Do you support moving other statues to "private grounds"? A Lincoln statue was removed in Boston and a Fredrick Douglas statue torn down in Rochester, NY. Move those to private grounds?
I don't think leaving them alone is an option that is on the table. The conversation about the political nature of those confederate monuments is over. We found your arguments lacking when weighed next to the cold hard facts. We established that these monuments are indeed racist and political. You weren't convinced, but there is no evidence possible that would convince you of that. Moving on, I don't need BLM to make bullets out of statues to see the historical symmetry. Not *all* of those 16th and 17th century statue pull downs were done to make bullets. If a statue of Lincoln is bringing people grief and another group wants to fund the removal and care of it, I'm fine with that. "All of those 16th and 17th century statues"? The 17th century ended on December 31, 1699 (or 1700 by some reckonings). I'm afraid that the start of the Revolution was still seven+ decades into the future. Were they pulling down statues from 1500 AD-1699AD? SMH. Bad math from TL, just like last time.
This kind of math deficiency is the reason why you lost the argument on the other thread. As long as there are ignorant people around who still foolishly think that the Confederate monuments were "racist and political", this conversation will never be over. You failed to make your case last time. Not looking too good this time, either.
Symmetry? Not hardly. Here's some real symmetry for you. Roman thugs loped heads off of statues after a regime change. Visigoths and Vandals defaced ancient Roman places. French mobs destroyed statues in front of Notre Dame. Taliban filth destroyed ancient Buddhist statues in Iraq. ISIS obliterated ancient treasures near Mosul.
What's the common characteristic among these examples? All were perpetrated by low life, disgusting filth....animals....bent on destruction and violence. Just like the animals tearing down Confederate monuments today.
I think you realize that the removal of these monuments is wrong; you've started two threads to offer excuses as to why it's OK for the memorials to be attacked and torn down. If the effort was righteous, no excuses would be necessary.
And really, what does any of this have to do with the killing of George Floyd in Minnesota? Never let a crisis go to waste? These monuments had and have NOTHING to do with the police or any of the perceived economic inequities of which you speak. The destruction of these monuments is not hurting law enforcement or the elites that you say need correction. It's hurting the regular folks that happen to have an equally legitimate alternative interpretation of history.
It's erasing history by removing any symbols that might make curious folks do a little thinking and research on their own, even if they disagree with the historical interpretation reflected by the monuments.
And if all others accepted the lie which the Party imposed – if all records told the same tale – then the lie passed into history and became truth. 'Who controls the past,' ran the Party slogan, 'controls the future: who controls the present controls the past.' And yet the past, though of its nature alterable, never had been altered. Whatever was true now was true from everlasting to everlasting. It was quite simple. All that was needed was an unending series of victories over your own memory. 'Reality control,' they called it: in Newspeak, 'doublethink.' - Orwell 1984
THAT'S what the monument destruction is all about.
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