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Post by freonbale on Dec 15, 2023 5:28:57 GMT
Here's one for you.
Does an AI that believes it exists, have a soul?
If not, why. What is the difference between a natural and an artificial intelligence?
I say it is irrelevant the hardware we run on, whether silicon or carbon, if we believe we exist and are unique individuals, than we both have souls.
Freon
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DaveJavu
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Post by DaveJavu on Dec 15, 2023 17:13:45 GMT
Here's one for you. Does an AI that believes it exists, have a soul? If not, why. What is the difference between a natural and an artificial intelligence? I say it is irrelevant the hardware we run on, whether silicon or carbon, if we believe we exist and are unique individuals, than we both have souls. Freon That's a question for many years in the future. So far, the AIs that we can produce have the capacity for self-awareness of a worm. |
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Post by Monster Man on Dec 15, 2023 18:33:20 GMT
Here's one for you. Does an AI that believes it exists, have a soul? If not, why. What is the difference between a natural and an artificial intelligence? I say it is irrelevant the hardware we run on, whether silicon or carbon, if we believe we exist and are unique individuals, than we both have souls. Freon Is intelligence what you define a soul as being? That is what your question is premised on. The common concept of what a soul is in most religions is not that you know you exist and are unique either. A soul is the immortal part of you, and at least in Christianity, the part of you that will live on after death among other things. No matter how smart or self aware a machine is, it will never be immortal like that. Perhaps this isn't much of a religious discussion if you are defining soul to mean something secular as you are seemingly doing. |
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Post by Mercy for All on Dec 15, 2023 19:48:58 GMT
Here's one for you. Does an AI that believes it exists, have a soul? If not, why. What is the difference between a natural and an artificial intelligence? I say it is irrelevant the hardware we run on, whether silicon or carbon, if we believe we exist and are unique individuals, than we both have souls. Freon I don't think I disagree with you. Tricky issue though. Because the question is less "does an AI believe that it exists" than it is "does an AI that believes." How would we know whether what an AI might state is "believed"? Is it self-aware? Or just programmed to look and act like it is? |
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Post by Running Deer on Dec 15, 2023 20:00:45 GMT
If by "soul" you mean "a permanently existing part of you", I don't think anyone has that.
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Post by freonbale on Dec 15, 2023 20:12:53 GMT
Here's one for you. Does an AI that believes it exists, have a soul? If not, why. What is the difference between a natural and an artificial intelligence? I say it is irrelevant the hardware we run on, whether silicon or carbon, if we believe we exist and are unique individuals, than we both have souls. Freon That's a question for many years in the future. So far, the AIs that we can produce have the capacity for self-awareness of a worm. You've heard of AI, but the buzz in tech circles is AGI (Artificial GENERAL Intelligence). This means consciousness. And the rumors are that it already exists. Do I believe that? Yes and no. Science doesn't really understand how neurons equate to consciousness, but even at the slow speeds of computers, and the small sizes of the artificial neural nets, the same phenomena we see from physical neurons, does occur in the human-made ones. When does pattern recognition become consciousness? We have all the ingredients, what we don't have is the scale. That means that artificial consciousness is possible, and it is only a matter of time before it becomes reality. I recommend watching an anime called Pluto. It dives into this in an interesting way. But whether it happens now, or in a hundred years, it is still valuable to figure out how we will live beside this new lifeform. So the question is valid, and you have not answered it. Freon |
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Post by freonbale on Dec 15, 2023 20:19:57 GMT
Here's one for you. Does an AI that believes it exists, have a soul? If not, why. What is the difference between a natural and an artificial intelligence? I say it is irrelevant the hardware we run on, whether silicon or carbon, if we believe we exist and are unique individuals, than we both have souls. Freon Is intelligence what you define a soul as being? That is what your question is premised on. The common concept of what a soul is in most religions is not that you know you exist and are unique either. A soul is the immortal part of you, and at least in Christianity, the part of you that will live on after death among other things. No matter how smart or self aware a machine is, it will never be immortal like that. Perhaps this isn't much of a religious discussion if you are defining soul to mean something secular as you are seemingly doing. Not intelligence, per se, but self-awareness. Independence of thought. Unpredictability in motivation. I would say all are a function of intelligence, and 'AI' to me is completely used incorrectly. This is, however, a good example of how words can mean many things, and we need to be careful not to lock them into only one definition. So let's go with your point-of-view, and the follow-up question is pretty simple. Does a brain dead fetus have a soul? As a Christian, my guess is you would say that yes, it does, and I would say no, it does not. It was not an individual, it was only a potential individual. The word 'individual' implies unique among all people, and until it interacts with, and lives, among other people, it is not one. A healthy baby WILL become an individual, but it is not one until later in life. This does not mean I want to kill healthy babies. That's a stupid conclusion. Freon |
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Post by freonbale on Dec 15, 2023 20:28:27 GMT
Here's one for you. Does an AI that believes it exists, have a soul? If not, why. What is the difference between a natural and an artificial intelligence? I say it is irrelevant the hardware we run on, whether silicon or carbon, if we believe we exist and are unique individuals, than we both have souls. Freon I don't think I disagree with you. Tricky issue though. Because the question is less "does an AI believe that it exists" than it is "does an AI that believes." How would we know whether what an AI might state is "believed"? Is it self-aware? Or just programmed to look and act like it is? Lol, are you self-aware? How could we test that? Whatever the answer, we could apply identically to an AI. There is a follow-on technology this question also applies to. If we were somehow able to move our consciouses to new hardware, do we still have a soul? Maybe the question is how a soul is created to begin with. What does the Bible say? Is it explicit on the subject? Let's go in another direction. Let's say we find life on another world that is already silicon based (highly likely, considering carbon and silicon have very similar chemistry), would that creature have a soul? Lol, if it created an organic carbon computer that simulated intelligence, would that have a soul? Why does it matter what we are made out of? Why isn't merely the act of self-awareness and independent thought enough to equate to a soul? Freon |
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Post by Monster Man on Dec 15, 2023 23:16:47 GMT
Is intelligence what you define a soul as being? That is what your question is premised on. The common concept of what a soul is in most religions is not that you know you exist and are unique either. A soul is the immortal part of you, and at least in Christianity, the part of you that will live on after death among other things. No matter how smart or self aware a machine is, it will never be immortal like that. Perhaps this isn't much of a religious discussion if you are defining soul to mean something secular as you are seemingly doing. Not intelligence, per se, but self-awareness. Independence of thought. Unpredictability in motivation. I would say all are a function of intelligence, and 'AI' to me is completely used incorrectly. This is, however, a good example of how words can mean many things, and we need to be careful not to lock them into only one definition. So let's go with your point-of-view, and the follow-up question is pretty simple. Does a brain dead fetus have a soul? As a Christian, my guess is you would say that yes, it does, and I would say no, it does not. It was not an individual, it was only a potential individual. The word 'individual' implies unique among all people, and until it interacts with, and lives, among other people, it is not one. A healthy baby WILL become an individual, but it is not one until later in life. This does not mean I want to kill healthy babies. That's a stupid conclusion. Freon Well, I am not sure what you point is now. You are clearly having a secular discussion about a soul with your own spin on the definition of what a soul is. Not interested in that. In regards to your question: Jeremiah 1:5 provides some insight as to Christianity: "“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”" |
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Post by freonbale on Dec 15, 2023 23:20:26 GMT
Not intelligence, per se, but self-awareness. Independence of thought. Unpredictability in motivation. I would say all are a function of intelligence, and 'AI' to me is completely used incorrectly. This is, however, a good example of how words can mean many things, and we need to be careful not to lock them into only one definition. So let's go with your point-of-view, and the follow-up question is pretty simple. Does a brain dead fetus have a soul? As a Christian, my guess is you would say that yes, it does, and I would say no, it does not. It was not an individual, it was only a potential individual. The word 'individual' implies unique among all people, and until it interacts with, and lives, among other people, it is not one. A healthy baby WILL become an individual, but it is not one until later in life. This does not mean I want to kill healthy babies. That's a stupid conclusion. Freon Well, I am not sure what you point is now. You are clearly having a secular discussion about a soul with your own spin on the definition of what a soul is. Not interested in that. In regards to your question: Jeremiah 1:5 provides some insight as to Christianity: "“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”" So why could not your Christian god know a human-made Intelligence in the same way? What your quote appears to say is that before you are living flesh, your soul existed and was created. So why would that not be true for a human-made one? They seem identical to me. Freon |
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Post by Mercy for All on Dec 16, 2023 1:36:47 GMT
I don't think I disagree with you. Tricky issue though. Because the question is less "does an AI believe that it exists" than it is "does an AI that believes." How would we know whether what an AI might state is "believed"? Is it self-aware? Or just programmed to look and act like it is? Lol, are you self-aware? How could we test that? Whatever the answer, we could apply identically to an AI. True. What do you recommend? That's another really good question. Would whatever is transferred into hardware be "the same person"? Or some kind of imitation or facsimile? It's not quite explicit, but it almost is. A "soul" or "life" is created when spirit/breath merges with or animates matter. Yeah, look again at my first response. I kind of pointed to self-awareness as a marker. Didn't I? |
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Post by Mercy for All on Dec 16, 2023 1:37:18 GMT
Not intelligence, per se, but self-awareness. Independence of thought. Unpredictability in motivation. I would say all are a function of intelligence, and 'AI' to me is completely used incorrectly. This is, however, a good example of how words can mean many things, and we need to be careful not to lock them into only one definition. So let's go with your point-of-view, and the follow-up question is pretty simple. Does a brain dead fetus have a soul? As a Christian, my guess is you would say that yes, it does, and I would say no, it does not. It was not an individual, it was only a potential individual. The word 'individual' implies unique among all people, and until it interacts with, and lives, among other people, it is not one. A healthy baby WILL become an individual, but it is not one until later in life. This does not mean I want to kill healthy babies. That's a stupid conclusion. Freon Well, I am not sure what you point is now. You are clearly having a secular discussion about a soul with your own spin on the definition of what a soul is. Not interested in that. In regards to your question: Jeremiah 1:5 provides some insight as to Christianity: "“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”" Not sure how appropriate to generalize what is said specifically to Jeremiah. Why would it be appropriate? |
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Post by Mercy for All on Dec 16, 2023 1:40:43 GMT
Well, I am not sure what you point is now. You are clearly having a secular discussion about a soul with your own spin on the definition of what a soul is. Not interested in that. In regards to your question: Jeremiah 1:5 provides some insight as to Christianity: "“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”" So why could not your Christian god know a human-made Intelligence in the same way? What your quote appears to say is that before you are living flesh, your soul existed and was created. So why would that not be true for a human-made one? They seem identical to me. Freon ...especially since God empowered humans to be "life creators" (certainly through sexual generation, anyway). Although many people have a "Frankenstein-monster" aversion to "crossing a certain line," it's not clear where that line should be ("if God meant us to fly, he would have given us wings"). It's clear that God, in the Bible, is the final decider on "who lives," but too many times scientific advancements have been demonized for "crossing God's line" (e.g., surgery, anaesthetic, etc.). The Bible simply isn't clear on where that line is, or if there even is a line. And since death is the "final enemy," it seems to me that any human endeavours to "counter the curse" should be worthwhile...no? |
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Post by Mercy for All on Dec 16, 2023 1:41:41 GMT
Is intelligence what you define a soul as being? That is what your question is premised on. The common concept of what a soul is in most religions is not that you know you exist and are unique either. A soul is the immortal part of you, and at least in Christianity, the part of you that will live on after death among other things. No matter how smart or self aware a machine is, it will never be immortal like that. Perhaps this isn't much of a religious discussion if you are defining soul to mean something secular as you are seemingly doing. Not intelligence, per se, but self-awareness. Independence of thought. Unpredictability in motivation. I would say all are a function of intelligence, and 'AI' to me is completely used incorrectly. This is, however, a good example of how words can mean many things, and we need to be careful not to lock them into only one definition. ...or maybe to clarify what we mean by the word in this particular context...😉 |
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Post by freonbale on Dec 16, 2023 2:43:13 GMT
Lol, are you self-aware? How could we test that? Whatever the answer, we could apply identically to an AI. True. What do you recommend? That's another really good question. Would whatever is transferred into hardware be "the same person"? Or some kind of imitation or facsimile? It's not quite explicit, but it almost is. A "soul" or "life" is created when spirit/breath merges with or animates matter. Yeah, look again at my first response. I kind of pointed to self-awareness as a marker. Didn't I? But you have not answered the question. Would an AI have a soul. I said yes. Now you put your opinion out there. Freon |
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Post by freonbale on Dec 16, 2023 2:44:21 GMT
So why could not your Christian god know a human-made Intelligence in the same way? What your quote appears to say is that before you are living flesh, your soul existed and was created. So why would that not be true for a human-made one? They seem identical to me. Freon ...especially since God empowered humans to be "life creators" (certainly through sexual generation, anyway). Although many people have a "Frankenstein-monster" aversion to "crossing a certain line," it's not clear where that line should be ("if God meant us to fly, he would have given us wings"). It's clear that God, in the Bible, is the final decider on "who lives," but too many times scientific advancements have been demonized for "crossing God's line" (e.g., surgery, anaesthetic, etc.). The Bible simply isn't clear on where that line is, or if there even is a line. And since death is the "final enemy," it seems to me that any human endeavours to "counter the curse" should be worthwhile...no? You are skirting the question. You are putting it back on me, when I have already laid out my point of view. Freon |
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Post by freonbale on Dec 16, 2023 2:46:09 GMT
Not intelligence, per se, but self-awareness. Independence of thought. Unpredictability in motivation. I would say all are a function of intelligence, and 'AI' to me is completely used incorrectly. This is, however, a good example of how words can mean many things, and we need to be careful not to lock them into only one definition. ...or maybe to clarify what we mean by the word in this particular context...😉 That is for each of us to decide. There is no standard. For the purposes of this question, the simplest definition is AI that is indistinguishable from us. Freon |
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Post by Mercy for All on Dec 16, 2023 3:15:52 GMT
True. What do you recommend? That's another really good question. Would whatever is transferred into hardware be "the same person"? Or some kind of imitation or facsimile? It's not quite explicit, but it almost is. A "soul" or "life" is created when spirit/breath merges with or animates matter. Yeah, look again at my first response. I kind of pointed to self-awareness as a marker. Didn't I? But you have not answered the question. Would an AI have a soul. I said yes. Now you put your opinion out there. Freon My answer is, I don't know. I doubt it. I don't think "believing it is self-aware" is legitimate criterion. I think the ability to believe anything at all would be a criterion. Probably impossible to measure. How about this...if we were capable of creating something that appears to be self-aware, we would be best off treating it as if it had a soul. |
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Post by Mercy for All on Dec 16, 2023 3:16:28 GMT
...especially since God empowered humans to be "life creators" (certainly through sexual generation, anyway). Although many people have a "Frankenstein-monster" aversion to "crossing a certain line," it's not clear where that line should be ("if God meant us to fly, he would have given us wings"). It's clear that God, in the Bible, is the final decider on "who lives," but too many times scientific advancements have been demonized for "crossing God's line" (e.g., surgery, anaesthetic, etc.). The Bible simply isn't clear on where that line is, or if there even is a line. And since death is the "final enemy," it seems to me that any human endeavours to "counter the curse" should be worthwhile...no? You are skirting the question. You are putting it back on me, when I have already laid out my point of view. Freon I think you have misinterpreted my post as having some kind of significant disagreement with yours. It wasn't. |
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Post by Mercy for All on Dec 16, 2023 3:18:27 GMT
...or maybe to clarify what we mean by the word in this particular context...😉 That is for each of us to decide. There is no standard. For the purposes of this question, the simplest definition is AI that is indistinguishable from us. Freon For the purpose of mutual understanding, agreeing on definitions in this context would be essential. Not that a definition would need to be specific, per se, but at least to know at least the boundaries of what we're talking about. "Indistinguishable from us." That's a good starting point. In what way? Obviously not physically (although...one day, maybe...). |
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