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Post by Monster Man on Dec 17, 2023 3:22:20 GMT
What happens to folks who don't go to heaven? Do they cease to exist upon death in all forms, including soul? Sooner or later, yes. The only possible support for an "eternal soul" apart from God is the statements about "eternal punishment," and I believe they refer to consequence, not experience. That is a position that is logically and scripturally supportable and doesn't run into the conflicts and contradictions that emerge from the position that the soul is inherently eternal. What does that mean, sooner or later? Well... what you believe they refer to is not what is said... so, what do you base that on then? |
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Post by Mercy for All on Dec 17, 2023 10:00:27 GMT
Sooner or later, yes. The only possible support for an "eternal soul" apart from God is the statements about "eternal punishment," and I believe they refer to consequence, not experience. That is a position that is logically and scripturally supportable and doesn't run into the conflicts and contradictions that emerge from the position that the soul is inherently eternal. What does that mean, sooner or later? Well... what you believe they refer to is not what is said... so, what do you base that on then? “What is said”? It doesn’t say “eternal experience.” Just like “eternal destruction” (see 1 Thess. 1:9) doesn’t mean “in a constant state of being destroyed”…does it? |
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Post by Monster Man on Dec 17, 2023 16:09:58 GMT
What does that mean, sooner or later? Well... what you believe they refer to is not what is said... so, what do you base that on then? “What is said”? It doesn’t say “eternal experience.” Just like “eternal destruction” (see 1 Thess. 1:9) doesn’t mean “in a constant state of being destroyed”…does it? Well, yeah, there are many verses that talk about eternal: Jude 1:7 2 Thessalonians 1:9 Matthew 25:41 Mark 9:43 And there are more. The question is not what exactly that experience is, which there are takes on, but that the experience is eternal. My point is that there is plenty of scripture pointing to an eternality of the soul after our physical existence here on Earth. To the point of this thread, that there is more to a soul than mere intelligence or self awareness. |
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Post by Mercy for All on Dec 17, 2023 19:43:09 GMT
“What is said”? It doesn’t say “eternal experience.” Just like “eternal destruction” (see 1 Thess. 1:9) doesn’t mean “in a constant state of being destroyed”…does it? Well, yeah, there are many verses that talk about eternal: Jude 1:7 2 Thessalonians 1:9 Matthew 25:41 Mark 9:43 And there are more. The question is not what exactly that experience is, which there are takes on, but that the experience is eternal. My point is that there is plenty of scripture pointing to an eternality of the soul after our physical existence here on Earth. To the point of this thread, that there is more to a soul than mere intelligence or self awareness. None of those verses say “experience.” What do you do with all the verses that talk about perishing or being destroyed? Do you ignore them or pretend those words don’t mean what they do? Let’s start with Jude 1:7. Eternal fire. That destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. Where are Sodom and Gomorrah? I had a fire in my fireplace. It wasn’t eternal but it did last quite a few hours. None of the wood lasted the entire time. |
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Post by Monster Man on Dec 17, 2023 19:47:23 GMT
Well, yeah, there are many verses that talk about eternal: Jude 1:7 2 Thessalonians 1:9 Matthew 25:41 Mark 9:43 And there are more. The question is not what exactly that experience is, which there are takes on, but that the experience is eternal. My point is that there is plenty of scripture pointing to an eternality of the soul after our physical existence here on Earth. To the point of this thread, that there is more to a soul than mere intelligence or self awareness. None of those verses say “experience.” What do you do with all the verses that talk about perishing or being destroyed? Do you ignore them or pretend those words don’t mean what they do? Let’s start with Jude 1:7. Eternal fire. That destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. Where are Sodom and Gomorrah? I had a fire in my fireplace. It wasn’t eternal but it did last quite a few hours. None of the wood lasted the entire time. So what is meant by eternal in all these scriptures? |
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Post by Mercy for All on Dec 17, 2023 22:20:12 GMT
None of those verses say “experience.” What do you do with all the verses that talk about perishing or being destroyed? Do you ignore them or pretend those words don’t mean what they do? Let’s start with Jude 1:7. Eternal fire. That destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. Where are Sodom and Gomorrah? I had a fire in my fireplace. It wasn’t eternal but it did last quite a few hours. None of the wood lasted the entire time. So what is meant by eternal in all these scriptures? Permanent. Like the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. |
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Post by DaveJavu on Dec 17, 2023 22:25:52 GMT
None of those verses say “experience.” What do you do with all the verses that talk about perishing or being destroyed? Do you ignore them or pretend those words don’t mean what they do? Let’s start with Jude 1:7. Eternal fire. That destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. Where are Sodom and Gomorrah? I had a fire in my fireplace. It wasn’t eternal but it did last quite a few hours. None of the wood lasted the entire time. So what is meant by eternal in all these scriptures? You can't be eternal, "eternal" means without beginning or end, since you have a beginning then no matter how long you last you won't be eternal, at best you can be perpetual, which means something that never ends. |
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Post by DaveJavu on Dec 17, 2023 22:28:04 GMT
God could be an A.I. that invented time-travel, went back in time and created the universe... Problem solved!
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Post by Monster Man on Dec 17, 2023 22:37:06 GMT
So what is meant by eternal in all these scriptures? Permanent. Like the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. Permanent... what? Yes, they were destroyed and we will die. But what happens after that? The scriptures don't say you die and that is it. Is that what you are saying? You die, then that is all that happens, just dead. Nothing else after? |
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Post by Mercy for All on Dec 17, 2023 23:42:09 GMT
Permanent. Like the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. Permanent... what? Yes, they were destroyed and we will die. But what happens after that? The scriptures don't say you die and that is it. Is that what you are saying? You die, then that is all that happens, just dead. Nothing else after? Correct. Ecclesiastes 12:7. |
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Post by Monster Man on Dec 18, 2023 0:14:22 GMT
Permanent... what? Yes, they were destroyed and we will die. But what happens after that? The scriptures don't say you die and that is it. Is that what you are saying? You die, then that is all that happens, just dead. Nothing else after? Correct. Ecclesiastes 12:7. That isn't what that verse says though. It says your spirit will go on after death to God. So, clearly death was not permanent. |
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Post by Mercy for All on Dec 18, 2023 13:13:25 GMT
Correct. Ecclesiastes 12:7. That isn't what that verse says though. It says your spirit will go on after death to God. So, clearly death was not permanent. You’re confusing soul with spirit. They’re not the same thing. We exist as souls, a combination of spirit and matter. |
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Post by Monster Man on Dec 18, 2023 15:54:12 GMT
That isn't what that verse says though. It says your spirit will go on after death to God. So, clearly death was not permanent. You’re confusing soul with spirit. They’re not the same thing. We exist as souls, a combination of spirit and matter. No, you were trying to claim death was it, nothing after. I merely pointed out that isn't what the scripture says. |
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Post by Mercy for All on Dec 18, 2023 16:48:09 GMT
You’re confusing soul with spirit. They’re not the same thing. We exist as souls, a combination of spirit and matter. No, you were trying to claim death was it, nothing after. I merely pointed out that isn't what the scripture says. I didn't say "death was it." I said we're not eternal. We are resurrected to judgment, but we don't necessarily "live forever." We don't have "an eternal soul." Life is a gift from God, and we don't "own it." In eternity, Christ will be "all in all" (1 Cor. 15:28; Col. 3:11). That leaves us with three options: 1) Christ is in hell and hell is in Christ (which seems nonsense—I would argue it is). 2) Universalism reigns—ultimately everyone will be redeemed (contradicts scripture). 3) Those who reject God's intent do not persist forever (nothing in the Bible contradicts that). There is no fourth option. Is there? |
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Post by Monster Man on Dec 18, 2023 16:55:05 GMT
No, you were trying to claim death was it, nothing after. I merely pointed out that isn't what the scripture says. I didn't say "death was it." I said we're not eternal. We are resurrected to judgment, but we don't necessarily "live forever." We don't have "an eternal soul." Life is a gift from God, and we don't "own it." In eternity, Christ will be "all in all" (1 Cor. 15:28; Col. 3:11). That leaves us with three options: 1) Christ is in hell and hell is in Christ (which seems nonsense—I would argue it is). 2) Universalism reigns—ultimately everyone will be redeemed (contradicts scripture). 3) Those who reject God's intent do not persist forever (nothing in the Bible contradicts that). There is no fourth option. Is there? My questions included: " You die, then that is all that happens, just dead. Nothing else after?" Your response: "Correct" Now you say: "I didn't say "death was it."" Yes, you in fact did. "just dead. Nothing else after?" You: "Correct" Yes, you said we were not eternal, which is why I am asking you very pointed questions here. What happens to people who rejected God after their death? Now you expand on that and say there will be a Judgement... then what? You keep saying it is not eternal, even though that is what scripture says, so I am trying to understand what it is you think happens to folks after they die. We are making some progress, first you claimed nothing, now you balk and say you didn't say that and add in a Judgement. OK, so where are they before Judgement and then after? |
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Post by Mercy for All on Dec 18, 2023 20:11:36 GMT
I didn't say "death was it." I said we're not eternal. We are resurrected to judgment, but we don't necessarily "live forever." We don't have "an eternal soul." Life is a gift from God, and we don't "own it." In eternity, Christ will be "all in all" (1 Cor. 15:28; Col. 3:11). That leaves us with three options: 1) Christ is in hell and hell is in Christ (which seems nonsense—I would argue it is). 2) Universalism reigns—ultimately everyone will be redeemed (contradicts scripture). 3) Those who reject God's intent do not persist forever (nothing in the Bible contradicts that). There is no fourth option. Is there? My questions included: " You die, then that is all that happens, just dead. Nothing else after?" Your response: "Correct" Now you say: "I didn't say "death was it."" Yes, you in fact did. "just dead. Nothing else after?" You: "Correct" Yes, you said we were not eternal, which is why I am asking you very pointed questions here. What happens to people who rejected God after their death? Now you expand on that and say there will be a Judgement... then what? You keep saying it is not eternal, even though that is what scripture says, so I am trying to understand what it is you think happens to folks after they die. We are making some progress, first you claimed nothing, now you balk and say you didn't say that and add in a Judgement. OK, so where are they before Judgement and then after? After judgment, there is nothing. I'm not balking. From the perspective of the world, we wait for resurrection. In our experience, as followers of Jesus, we are "immediately present with the Lord" upon death. What happens to the unrighteous in between death and final judgment is unclear. But the "eternality of the soul" is not biblical. Despite your questions, you have yet to support that idea. What's your goal here? To "trap me in inconsistencies"? Or to uncover and reveal what is actually biblically true? I didn't come to these conclusions casually or flippantly. I came to them after lots of lots of study. You? |
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Post by Monster Man on Dec 18, 2023 20:49:09 GMT
My questions included: " You die, then that is all that happens, just dead. Nothing else after?" Your response: "Correct" Now you say: "I didn't say "death was it."" Yes, you in fact did. "just dead. Nothing else after?" You: "Correct" Yes, you said we were not eternal, which is why I am asking you very pointed questions here. What happens to people who rejected God after their death? Now you expand on that and say there will be a Judgement... then what? You keep saying it is not eternal, even though that is what scripture says, so I am trying to understand what it is you think happens to folks after they die. We are making some progress, first you claimed nothing, now you balk and say you didn't say that and add in a Judgement. OK, so where are they before Judgement and then after? After judgment, there is nothing. I'm not balking. From the perspective of the world, we wait for resurrection. In our experience, as followers of Jesus, we are "immediately present with the Lord" upon death. What happens to the unrighteous in between death and final judgment is unclear. But the "eternality of the soul" is not biblical. Despite your questions, you have yet to support that idea. What's your goal here? To "trap me in inconsistencies"? Or to uncover and reveal what is actually biblically true? I didn't come to these conclusions casually or flippantly. I came to them after lots of lots of study. You? You were the one nitpicking me here about eternal. Of which I have produced scripture to support. Now, I am trying to figure out what you believe and why, since you reject that scripture. Now you claim that there is nothing after Judgement for those who did not believe, OK... and what scripture do you base that on? This all started as me making a fairly innocent and non-controversial point about how the meaning of soul for a Christian is more than Freon was trying to describe in a secular way. Do you think I have come to my beliefs flippantly or casually? I have been a Christian almost my entire life and have studied with many different denominations from my time in the military and moving around. |
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Post by Mercy for All on Dec 18, 2023 21:01:18 GMT
After judgment, there is nothing. I'm not balking. From the perspective of the world, we wait for resurrection. In our experience, as followers of Jesus, we are "immediately present with the Lord" upon death. What happens to the unrighteous in between death and final judgment is unclear. But the "eternality of the soul" is not biblical. Despite your questions, you have yet to support that idea. What's your goal here? To "trap me in inconsistencies"? Or to uncover and reveal what is actually biblically true? I didn't come to these conclusions casually or flippantly. I came to them after lots of lots of study. You? You were the one nitpicking me here about eternal. Of which I have produced scripture to support. Now, I am trying to figure out what you believe and why, since you reject that scripture. Now you claim that there is nothing after Judgement for those who did not believe, OK... and what scripture do you base that on? This all started as me making a fairly innocent and non-controversial point about how the meaning of soul for a Christian is more than Freon was trying to describe in a secular way. Do you think I have come to my beliefs flippantly or casually? I have been a Christian almost my entire life and have studied with many different denominations from my time in the military and moving around. I'm not "nitpicking." I've been very clear. We were not created with an "eternal soul." The only verses used to justify the concept must be "pre-interpreted" to mean "eternal experience" rather than "eternal consequence," even though other uses of "eternal" used the same way talk about consequence (e.g., the "eternal destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah"). After judgement, apart from God's intervention, we perish. What does that mean? Does "perish" mean "persist"? We perish, but continue to exist? Luke 13:3 2 Peter 3:9 John 3:16 (of course) Etc. I would suspect that you believe what you believe because, like me, you've been taught it all your life, and so you read scripture through that lens, despite the fact that the text doesn't actually say that, and despite the fact that that particular interpretation leads to irreconcilable contradictions. Why would we assume that the soul is eternal (despite the fact that the text doesn't say so)? Because we've mixed Greek philosophy with the biblical text and so we read it through a Greek perspective. So we assume that the soul is eternal. And we justify that by misreading "eternal punishment" (while ignoring the parallel "eternal destruction"). |
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Post by Monster Man on Dec 18, 2023 21:23:53 GMT
You were the one nitpicking me here about eternal. Of which I have produced scripture to support. Now, I am trying to figure out what you believe and why, since you reject that scripture. Now you claim that there is nothing after Judgement for those who did not believe, OK... and what scripture do you base that on? This all started as me making a fairly innocent and non-controversial point about how the meaning of soul for a Christian is more than Freon was trying to describe in a secular way. Do you think I have come to my beliefs flippantly or casually? I have been a Christian almost my entire life and have studied with many different denominations from my time in the military and moving around. I'm not "nitpicking." I've been very clear. We were not created with an "eternal soul." The only verses used to justify the concept must be "pre-interpreted" to mean "eternal experience" rather than "eternal consequence," even though other uses of "eternal" used the same way talk about consequence (e.g., the "eternal destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah"). After judgement, apart from God's intervention, we perish. What does that mean? Does "perish" mean "persist"? We perish, but continue to exist? Luke 13:3 2 Peter 3:9 John 3:16 (of course) Etc. I would suspect that you believe what you believe because, like me, you've been taught it all your life, and so you read scripture through that lens, despite the fact that the text doesn't actually say that, and despite the fact that that particular interpretation leads to irreconcilable contradictions. Why would we assume that the soul is eternal (despite the fact that the text doesn't say so)? Because we've mixed Greek philosophy with the biblical text and so we read it through a Greek perspective. So we assume that the soul is eternal. And we justify that by misreading "eternal punishment" (while ignoring the parallel "eternal destruction"). Well, it is a bit pretentious of you to think that you have found THE answer. This is one of those doctrinal differences you will find among Christians who have done just as much studying as you have. You agree the soul is eternal for believers, so as to the point of this discussion, I am fine with our disagreement for non-believers, and is not a conversation I am interested in having, you have your views, I have mine, we both have scripture to support them. It is not going to make a difference in the end or now on who is right there, well, except for those poor souls who "perish"  |
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Post by Mercy for All on Dec 18, 2023 22:13:37 GMT
I'm not "nitpicking." I've been very clear. We were not created with an "eternal soul." The only verses used to justify the concept must be "pre-interpreted" to mean "eternal experience" rather than "eternal consequence," even though other uses of "eternal" used the same way talk about consequence (e.g., the "eternal destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah"). After judgement, apart from God's intervention, we perish. What does that mean? Does "perish" mean "persist"? We perish, but continue to exist? Luke 13:3 2 Peter 3:9 John 3:16 (of course) Etc. I would suspect that you believe what you believe because, like me, you've been taught it all your life, and so you read scripture through that lens, despite the fact that the text doesn't actually say that, and despite the fact that that particular interpretation leads to irreconcilable contradictions. Why would we assume that the soul is eternal (despite the fact that the text doesn't say so)? Because we've mixed Greek philosophy with the biblical text and so we read it through a Greek perspective. So we assume that the soul is eternal. And we justify that by misreading "eternal punishment" (while ignoring the parallel "eternal destruction"). Well, it is a bit pretentious of you to think that you have found THE answer. This is one of those doctrinal differences you will find among Christians who have done just as much studying as you have. You agree the soul is eternal for believers, so as to the point of this discussion, I am fine with our disagreement for non-believers, and is not a conversation I am interested in having, you have your views, I have mine, we both have scripture to support them. It is not going to make a difference in the end or now on who is right there, well, except for those poor souls who "perish" 1. Do you think I am unique in this view? 2. "Perishing" is preferable to burning for eternity in fire. By a long shot. 3. My view doesn't have devastating contradictions. |
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