Paleocon
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We spent 50 Years fighting the USSR just to become a gay, retarded version of It.
Posts: 6,286
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Post by Paleocon on Jan 26, 2023 17:31:22 GMT
In a sane world, I wouldn't be in the minority in saying that we should not be involved militarily in Ukraine at all.
We've provided more aid to Ukraine than the entire annual Russian military budget and are draining our own reserves of ammunition and equipment.
Evidently, avoiding foreign entanglements is a dead and buried concept. This is a proxy war pushed by globalists.
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thor
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Post by thor on Jan 26, 2023 22:59:47 GMT
And training for ukraine? Militarily probably won't mean much, because there are going to be more Leopards that require less training and it's going to take longer for the Abrams to get there. A lot also depends on how Ukraine actually uses the tanks on the battlefield.
Policy-wise it means a lot, because we reversed a decision even the U.S. military wasn't really on board with, and it shows that if pressed we'll give in. So now Ukraine is pressing for long-range missiles (while threatening the Kremlin) and F-16s (which will also take a long time to train).
Nah. Plenty are in Germany apart from those used by operational units. |
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Post by limey² on Jan 26, 2023 23:04:46 GMT
And training for ukraine? Good. Late, but good. |
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Post by limey² on Jan 26, 2023 23:05:28 GMT
And training for ukraine? I'm uncomfortably OK with it. Ukraine's on defense (who doesn't support the underdog?) and I am conditioned to view Russia (and Communism) as my boogieman enemy. Fuck Putin. Russia isn’t communist... remember the early 90s? |
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Post by limey² on Jan 26, 2023 23:09:30 GMT
Jobs for American workers. Greg Yes Craig. I would like to see Ukraine and Russia stop the BS. BECAUSE you and I are paying for all that equipment sent to help. Deficit? It's not BS. It's a war of unprovoked aggression by an anti-democratic criminal State against a fledgling democracy. It is costing the us and others very little. The tanks you're sending are just sitting in warehouses. The cash values quoted are the original purchase price; not new spending. |
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Post by limey² on Jan 26, 2023 23:15:49 GMT
In a sane world, I wouldn't be in the minority in saying that we should not be involved militarily in Ukraine at all.
We've provided more aid to Ukraine than the entire annual Russian military budget and are draining our own reserves of ammunition and equipment.
Evidently, avoiding foreign entanglements is a dead and buried concept. This is a proxy war pushed by globalists.
You're in the wrong, as your ideological forebears were in 1914 and 1939. America and the wider West thrives on reliable trade, stable governance, the rule of law and on the respect, qualified though it sometimes must be, for national sovereignty. Emboldening Russia by letting it succeed in its crime will not advance either the global paradigm that sustains the US, nor the wide respect for the US that is a result of 2 or three generations of tacit American leadership on these values. I know you like Putin because he's a homophobe and gives Kyril a big house; think beyond your narrow prejudices a bit. |
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thor
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Posts: 17,608
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Post by thor on Jan 26, 2023 23:17:34 GMT
In a sane world, I wouldn't be in the minority in saying that we should not be involved militarily in Ukraine at all.
We've provided more aid to Ukraine than the entire annual Russian military budget and are draining our own reserves of ammunition and equipment.
Evidently, avoiding foreign entanglements is a dead and buried concept. This is a proxy war pushed by globalists.
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Post by runswithscissors on Jan 27, 2023 1:45:48 GMT
Militarily probably won't mean much, because there are going to be more Leopards that require less training and it's going to take longer for the Abrams to get there. A lot also depends on how Ukraine actually uses the tanks on the battlefield.
Policy-wise it means a lot, because we reversed a decision even the U.S. military wasn't really on board with, and it shows that if pressed we'll give in. So now Ukraine is pressing for long-range missiles (while threatening the Kremlin) and F-16s (which will also take a long time to train).
Nah. Plenty are in Germany apart from those used by operational units. I read something yesterday that said the tanks being sent to Ukraine from the US are going to be new and purpose built. That Ukraine will not be getting any existing Abrams tanks. I tend to believe it because there are probably features on these tanks that the US military doesn't want others to have access to. I've not been interested enough to check this out, though. But it sounds plausible. The fact that they won't be getting any of them until sometime in March tends to support it. |
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Post by VYPR on Jan 27, 2023 6:40:02 GMT
In a sane world, I wouldn't be in the minority in saying that we should not be involved militarily in Ukraine at all.
We've provided more aid to Ukraine than the entire annual Russian military budget and are draining our own reserves of ammunition and equipment.
Evidently, avoiding foreign entanglements is a dead and buried concept. This is a proxy war pushed by globalists.
The reserves of ammunition and equipment were put into place by NATO to deter Russia. Now, that equipment is effectively eliminating Russia as a threat to its neighbors for years or decades. Hard to find a better use for unused equipment sitting in storage than what it was originally assigned to do. Russia is a shit gangster state that assumed it could operate with impunity because it can threaten everyone with nukes. If you give in to Russia's nuclear threats you effectively green light their ability to get away with anything, just because they have nukes. |
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demos
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Post by demos on Jan 27, 2023 16:51:22 GMT
Nah. Plenty are in Germany apart from those used by operational units. Except...
Rather than sending Ukraine tanks from its own stocks, as it has done with previous weapons, the U.S. has said it is buying the Abrams from industry, meaning they won’t arrive on the battlefield for many months, or potentially years, given industrial constraints in upgrading them. In the meantime, the U.S. will train Ukrainian forces on how to maintain and operate the tanks, as well as “combined arms maneuver” tactics to help them integrate the weapons into their overall operations. ( Politico)
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demos
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Post by demos on Jan 27, 2023 16:53:14 GMT
The reserves of ammunition and equipment were put into place by NATO to deter Russia. Now, that equipment is effectively eliminating Russia as a threat to its neighbors for years or decades. Hard to find a better use for unused equipment sitting in storage than what it was originally assigned to do. The thing is that they're going through so much ammunition that its eating into our own stock and that's going to take a while build back up.
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demos
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Post by demos on Jan 27, 2023 16:55:42 GMT
I read something yesterday that said the tanks being sent to Ukraine from the US are going to be new and purpose built. That Ukraine will not be getting any existing Abrams tanks. I tend to believe it because there are probably features on these tanks that the US military doesn't want others to have access to. I've not been interested enough to check this out, though. But it sounds plausible. The fact that they won't be getting any of them until sometime in March tends to support it. This is correct, and Taiwan and Poland are already ahead of Ukraine in the production pipeline (see Politico article just linked). Regarding the features, in particular, it's the armor that they don't want others to have access to. Egypt and Saudi Arabia have versions that do not have the upgraded armor (see Greg's link from yesterday), but getting that equipment from them might be like trying to get equipment from Israel - a tough sell. |
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thor
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Posts: 17,608
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Post by thor on Jan 27, 2023 17:13:18 GMT
Nah. Plenty are in Germany apart from those used by operational units. Except...
Rather than sending Ukraine tanks from its own stocks, as it has done with previous weapons, the U.S. has said it is buying the Abrams from industry, meaning they won’t arrive on the battlefield for many months, or potentially years, given industrial constraints in upgrading them. In the meantime, the U.S. will train Ukrainian forces on how to maintain and operate the tanks, as well as “combined arms maneuver” tactics to help them integrate the weapons into their overall operations. ( Politico)
Yes, someone else mentioned this. Although I will say that the 'upgrades' are like more like 'stripping down' the M-1s to make them acceptable for export for a myriad of reasons. When the USSR exported their stuff, they created 'export models' of things like T-72s, etc. |
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demos
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Post by demos on Jan 27, 2023 17:18:01 GMT
Yes, someone else mentioned this. Although I will say that the 'upgrades' are like more like 'stripping down' the M-1s to make them acceptable for export for a myriad of reasons. When the USSR exported their stuff, they created 'export models' of things like T-72s, etc. Egypt and Saudi Arabia have export models (according to the report yesterday) that don't include the armor on US models, but convincing them to give them up might be a problem, as with Israel giving up equipment, due to their own relationships with Russia.
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thor
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Posts: 17,608
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Post by thor on Jan 27, 2023 17:21:38 GMT
Yes, someone else mentioned this. Although I will say that the 'upgrades' are like more like 'stripping down' the M-1s to make them acceptable for export for a myriad of reasons. When the USSR exported their stuff, they created 'export models' of things like T-72s, etc. Egypt and Saudi Arabia have export models (according to the report yesterday) that don't include the armor on US models, but convincing them to give them up might be a problem, as with Israel giving up equipment, due to their own relationships with Russia.
All true. |
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Post by runswithscissors on Jan 28, 2023 2:26:39 GMT
I read something yesterday that said the tanks being sent to Ukraine from the US are going to be new and purpose built. That Ukraine will not be getting any existing Abrams tanks. I tend to believe it because there are probably features on these tanks that the US military doesn't want others to have access to. I've not been interested enough to check this out, though. But it sounds plausible. The fact that they won't be getting any of them until sometime in March tends to support it. This is correct, and Taiwan and Poland are already ahead of Ukraine in the production pipeline (see Politico article just linked). Regarding the features, in particular, it's the armor that they don't want others to have access to. Egypt and Saudi Arabia have versions that do not have the upgraded armor (see Greg's link from yesterday), but getting that equipment from them might be like trying to get equipment from Israel - a tough sell. Well, this all seems to be organized adequately. The tank issue reminded me of reading about how in the US war in Iraq, UK pilots were flying US aircraft but were not able to read the maintenance or operational manuals for the planes they were assigned to fly because the manuals were stamped "NOFORN" which is about the lowest classification any piece of paper has. It means no access to foreigners, even if they're our allies. They eventually sorted this bullshit out. But if I remember right, it took about three months. |
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demos
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Post by demos on Apr 26, 2024 17:54:09 GMT
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Post by thecitizen on Apr 26, 2024 18:43:03 GMT
Jobs for American workers. Greg Yes Craig. I would like to see Ukraine and Russia stop the BS. BECAUSE you and I are paying for all that equipment sent to help. Deficit? We are spending less money now on foreign wars than we did when we occupied Afghanistan. You did not complain then |
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demos
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Post by demos on Apr 26, 2024 18:48:49 GMT
We are spending less money now on foreign wars than we did when we occupied Afghanistan. You did not complain then Funny you should mention that. This quote cracked me up.
"This aid will strengthen Ukraine and send the Kremlin a powerful signal that it will not be the second Afghanistan. The US will stay with Ukraine, they will protect Ukrainians and democracy." - Zelensky
Because aid to Afghanistan was the problem.  |
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Odysseus
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Trump=Chump
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Post by Odysseus on Apr 26, 2024 19:10:52 GMT
We are spending less money now on foreign wars than we did when we occupied Afghanistan. You did not complain then Funny you should mention that. This quote cracked me up.
"This aid will strengthen Ukraine and send the Kremlin a powerful signal that it will not be the second Afghanistan. The US will stay with Ukraine, they will protect Ukrainians and democracy." - Zelensky
Because aid to Afghanistan was the problem. (roli)
Please show us where Zelensky said US aid to Afghanistan was a problem...
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