sokpupet
Legend
Go Dark Brandon!
Posts: 6,239
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Post by sokpupet on Apr 18, 2022 14:26:45 GMT
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Post by Mercy for All on Apr 18, 2022 18:02:31 GMT
Where is the evidence for these claims about the gods Jesus supposedly imitated?
Especially the "had 12 disciples," or "dead for 3 days," or even "born on Dec. 25" (which is not true of Jesus)?
Yeah, history is important. You probably won't find legitimate history on TikTok.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2022 20:05:35 GMT
Where is the evidence for these claims about the gods Jesus supposedly imitated? Especially the "had 12 disciples," or "dead for 3 days," or even "born on Dec. 25" (which is not true of Jesus)? Yeah, history is important. You probably won't find legitimate history on TikTok. You can't deny that the christians stole their main celebrations (xmas, easter, epiphany, ascension, assumption... ) from other religions that ironically they called "pagan" as in peasants, illiterate, misinformed. Basically they encompassed all these religions from which they stole so much with a term that means that they are inferior, deserving of contempt.
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sokpupet
Legend
Go Dark Brandon!
Posts: 6,239
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Post by sokpupet on Apr 19, 2022 1:11:50 GMT
Where is the evidence for these claims about the gods Jesus supposedly imitated? Especially the "had 12 disciples," or "dead for 3 days," or even "born on Dec. 25" (which is not true of Jesus)? Yeah, history is important. You probably won't find legitimate history on TikTok. Jesus did not imitate anyone. Man appropriated past religions and projected onto their beliefs. Also, travel was more prolific as was the written word. www.history.com/.amp/news/inside-the-conversion-tactics-of-the-early-christian-church
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Post by Mercy for All on Apr 19, 2022 1:32:26 GMT
Where is the evidence for these claims about the gods Jesus supposedly imitated? Especially the "had 12 disciples," or "dead for 3 days," or even "born on Dec. 25" (which is not true of Jesus)? Yeah, history is important. You probably won't find legitimate history on TikTok. Jesus did not imitate anyone. Man appropriated past religions and projected onto their beliefs. Also, travel was more prolific as was the written word. www.history.com/.amp/news/inside-the-conversion-tactics-of-the-early-christian-churchThat's a nice article that ignores both history and logic. There was nothing "planned" or "expected" about the rise of Christianity. The earliest disciples did not "expect" the resurrection—then. Jews expected a resurrection at the end of time, not "now in the middle of history." There is no logical or historical explanation for the rise of Christianity apart from something extremely unusual (like the resurrection). Messianic movements were almost a dime a dozen in that day. If the would-be messiah was killed, there were two options: 1) The movement died. 2) They selected another leader (a là Judas Maccabaeus who was succeeded by his brother upon his death, who in turn was succeeded by his brother, etc.). So...in Jesus we have a a crucified messiah—a "disqualifying event" if there was one. And yet after his (well-attested) death, his followers didn't move on to the next candidate, James (actually "Jacob"), his brother. They made the outrageous claim that he "rose from the dead." Not that he was a "ghost" or "presence," but that he actually rose (in contrast to when they thought Peter had been executed, they assumed that when he was knocking on the door in Acts, it was not him but his ghost or angel). So then this movement starts—less "religion" (means to appease the gods) than a "philosophy" (an explanation and means of living). Without a temple, or sacrifices, etc., they were dismissed as "atheists." Because of their refusal to honour local deities and deified Caesar, and because they broke the boundaries of social expectations, they were considered dangerous, a threat to society. They were counterculturally strict about faithfulness in marriage, preserving the lives of infants, and opposed slavery (at least...the leaders did). There was more to conversion than being encouraged and amazed by second- and third-hand stories of miracles. A movement doesn't survive mass persecution and the threat of martyrdom by that. And in a world where syncretism was perfectly acceptable, exclusivist claims would be quite a hard-sell. So much does not make sense in this article.
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Post by Monster Man on Apr 19, 2022 4:05:54 GMT
This is such a lazy tactic. You just post tiktok videos. I am not watching it. This is a forum. If you have an argument to make or some commentary to share, do so. Post a video to support that, sure.
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sokpupet
Legend
Go Dark Brandon!
Posts: 6,239
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Post by sokpupet on Apr 19, 2022 13:36:13 GMT
This is such a lazy tactic. You just post tiktok videos. I am not watching it. This is a forum. If you have an argument to make or some commentary to share, do so. Post a video to support that, sure. It is you who are lazy. I’m not going to regurgitate the information for you. If you do not wish to invest then scroll in.
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Post by Monster Man on Apr 19, 2022 13:41:03 GMT
This is such a lazy tactic. You just post tiktok videos. I am not watching it. This is a forum. If you have an argument to make or some commentary to share, do so. Post a video to support that, sure. It is you who are lazy. I’m not going to regurgitate the information for you. If you do not wish to invest then scroll in. I did not ask you to "regurgitate" the information for me. I said: "If you have an argument to make or some commentary to share, do so." There is nothing to "invest" in here, all you said was "History is important"
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sokpupet
Legend
Go Dark Brandon!
Posts: 6,239
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Post by sokpupet on Apr 19, 2022 13:44:48 GMT
It is you who are lazy. I’m not going to regurgitate the information for you. If you do not wish to invest then scroll in. I did not ask you to "regurgitate" the information for me. I said: "If you have an argument to make or some commentary to share, do so." There is nothing to "invest" in here, all you said was "History is important" You have directed me to type out my sourced info to your liking; so you have asked me to regurgitate for you. My argument is within the video. Yes, history is important as we seem to be watching the right recreate authoritarian rule.
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Post by Monster Man on Apr 19, 2022 13:51:18 GMT
I did not ask you to "regurgitate" the information for me. I said: "If you have an argument to make or some commentary to share, do so." There is nothing to "invest" in here, all you said was "History is important" You have directed me to type out my sourced info to your liking; so you have asked me to regurgitate for you. My argument is within the video. Yes, history is important as we seem to be watching the right recreate authoritarian rule. Is that your TikTok video? If not, that is not your argument at all. It is just a lazy posting of a link. If your argument is that we are watching "the right recreate authoritarian rule" this is the Religion forum... Nevermind, such an assertion is silly since it is generally "the right" who is supporting less government in general, as well as less regulation and more freedoms.
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sokpupet
Legend
Go Dark Brandon!
Posts: 6,239
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Post by sokpupet on Apr 19, 2022 14:04:59 GMT
You have directed me to type out my sourced info to your liking; so you have asked me to regurgitate for you. My argument is within the video. Yes, history is important as we seem to be watching the right recreate authoritarian rule. Is that your TikTok video? If not, that is not your argument at all. It is just a lazy posting of a link. If your argument is that we are watching "the right recreate authoritarian rule" this is the Religion forum... Nevermind, such an assertion is silly since it is generally "the right" who is supporting less government in general, as well as less regulation and more freedoms. You are adept at moving goalposts I see. So, everything you post is your very own idea without any outside input. Do you see yourself? About less government and less regulation. If companies would self govern, which they do not, then the government would have no reason to get involved.
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Post by Mercy for All on Apr 19, 2022 16:17:58 GMT
I did not ask you to "regurgitate" the information for me. I said: "If you have an argument to make or some commentary to share, do so." There is nothing to "invest" in here, all you said was "History is important" You have directed me to type out my sourced info to your liking; so you have asked me to regurgitate for you. My argument is within the video. Yes, history is important as we seem to be watching the right recreate authoritarian rule. It's funny because the Church of Christendom exercised far more "authoritarian rule" than is present anywhere in the west today. Very few are actively trying to re-implement that (especially because that particular culture expression of "the Church" carried in it many contradictions in particular and in general with what is taught and demonstrated in the Bible).
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Post by Mercy for All on Apr 19, 2022 19:36:53 GMT
History: when Emperor Julian (known as "Julian the Apostate"), who attempted to quell Christianity in favour of restoring Roman paganism, described the growth of Christianity, he did not ascribe its growth to miracles or miracle stories. He said that Christianity:
"...has been specially advanced through the loving service rendered to strangers and through their care of the burial of the dead. It is a scandal that there is not a single Jew who is a beggar and that the they care not only for their own poor but for ours as well; while those who belong to us look in vain for the help we should render them."
Yes, history is important.
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Post by Running Deer on Apr 29, 2022 16:50:15 GMT
You can make a much stronger case for appropriation in metaphysics. Mainstream Christianity's views of the relationships between body and soul, mind and material, God and man, and so on are heavily influenced by Platonic philosophy.
The earliest surviving Christian creed (Philippians 2:6-11) says that Jesus was in the Morfe of God, emptied himself, and took on the Morfe of Man. Morfe is often translated as "form", both in the New Testament and in Plato. Although Morfe can mean an ordinary shape, in Plato it refers to the true essences of things that transcend their appearances in the world. For example, even though there are nearly 8 billion human beings, there is a Morfe of Man - a true essence of what it means to be human - that transcends each of us and allows us to distinguish a human being from, say, a tiger. The earliest creed is probably using the Platonic meaning.
The Gospel of John says that Jesus is Logos of God, usually translated as "Word" of God. The Platonic meaning of Logos is complex and involves how the divine can interact with the world. Even having studied philosophy, I don't fully understand what the Platonists were trying to say. It's extremely esoteric, and in fact, it may actually relate to altered states of mind brought on by religious rituals, meditation, prayer, psychoactive substances, etc. Having said all that, St. John is clearly borrowing the Platonic term to describe how Jesus is the link between God and the world.
Christian descriptions of the structure of God, developed hundreds of years after the New Testament was written, also borrow heavily from Platonic philosophy. The person/essence distinction of the Trinity? Is Jesus the same substance or a similar substance as God? All of these questions are framed in terms from Platonic philosophy, not from Judaism.
However, I hate the term "appropriation". If someone stole something, say they stole it. If they adopted it, say they adopted it. If they are mocking it, say they are mocking it. If they are imitating it, say they are imitating it. If they are collaborating to work with it, say that. If you think any of these actions are wrong, say that, too. We have more meaningful terms to describe all the different things around "appropriation" and to describe whether it's good or bad. Let's use them.
And finally, if someone has an idea that is right or useful, OF COURSE WE SHOULD ADOPT IT. If the Platonists are correct about the relationship between the divine and the world, the Christians made the right choice by adopting it, and all of us should ALSO adopt it. Good ideas are good whoever develops them, and we should adopt every good idea. (At the risk of stating the obvious, I am a post-modern atheist materialist, and I think the Platonists are wrong about nearly everything.)
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Post by Mercy for All on Apr 29, 2022 17:52:52 GMT
You can make a much stronger case for appropriation in metaphysics. Mainstream Christianity's views of the relationships between body and soul, mind and material, God and man, and so on are heavily influenced by Platonic philosophy. The earliest surviving Christian creed (Philippians 2:6-11) says that Jesus was in the Morfe of God, emptied himself, and took on the Morfe of Man. Morfe is often translated as "form", both in the New Testament and in Plato. Although Morfe can mean an ordinary shape, in Plato it refers to the true essences of things that transcend their appearances in the world. For example, even though there are nearly 8 billion human beings, there is a Morfe of Man - a true essence of what it means to be human - that transcends each of us and allows us to distinguish a human being from, say, a tiger. The earliest creed is probably using the Platonic meaning. The Gospel of John says that Jesus is Logos of God, usually translated as "Word" of God. The Platonic meaning of Logos is complex and involves how the divine can interact with the world. Even having studied philosophy, I don't fully understand what the Platonists were trying to say. It's extremely esoteric, and in fact, it may actually relate to altered states of mind brought on by religious rituals, meditation, prayer, psychoactive substances, etc. Having said all that, St. John is clearly borrowing the Platonic term to describe how Jesus is the link between God and the world. Christian descriptions of the structure of God, developed hundreds of years after the New Testament was written, also borrow heavily from Platonic philosophy. The person/essence distinction of the Trinity? Is Jesus the same substance or a similar substance as God? All of these questions are framed in terms from Platonic philosophy, not from Judaism. However, I hate the term "appropriation". If someone stole something, say they stole it. If they adopted it, say they adopted it. If they are mocking it, say they are mocking it. If they are imitating it, say they are imitating it. If they are collaborating to work with it, say that. If you think any of these actions are wrong, say that, too. We have more meaningful terms to describe all the different things around "appropriation" and to describe whether it's good or bad. Let's use them. And finally, if someone has an idea that is right or useful, OF COURSE WE SHOULD ADOPT IT. If the Platonists are correct about the relationship between the divine and the world, the Christians made the right choice by adopting it, and all of us should ALSO adopt it. Good ideas are good whoever develops them, and we should adopt every good idea. (At the risk of stating the obvious, I am a post-modern atheist materialist, and I think the Platonists are wrong about nearly everything.) All this is true. Christianity's primary influence was (proto-)Judaism, but in the first century, Judaism itself was influenced by a hefty dose of Greek philosophy. Ancient Jewish historian Philo was not religiously Jewish; he was a Stoic. Unfortunately I believe and would argue that what you call "Mainstream Christianity" adopted far more Platonism than was intended by the biblical authors (and there is a recent pushback to that, influenced not least by N.T. Wright). Aquinas preferred Aristotle to Plato and pushed the church that way as well. Too much Greek philosophy at the expense of Christianity's Hebrew roots.
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Post by Running Deer on May 2, 2022 21:07:05 GMT
I would agree that Nicene and proto-Nicene Christianity* adopted much more Platonism than the Hebrew Bible intended. Primarily, the Hebrew Bible does not usually endorse the sharp distinction between body and mind that Nicene Christians believe in.
However, the NT does include two of the most important Platonic ideas and uses them to speak of the relationship between Jesus and God. That's a lot of Platonism!
* I think this illustrates what I mean better than "Mainstream".
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Post by Mercy for All on May 2, 2022 22:29:55 GMT
I would agree that Nicene and proto-Nicene Christianity* adopted much more Platonism than the Hebrew Bible intended. Primarily, the Hebrew Bible does not usually endorse the sharp distinction between body and mind that Nicene Christians believe in. However, the NT does include two of the most important Platonic ideas and uses them to speak of the relationship between Jesus and God. That's a lot of Platonism! * I think this illustrates what I mean better than "Mainstream". IMO, the eternality of the soul is where the line is crossed into "too much Platonism."
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Post by Running Deer on May 3, 2022 21:07:56 GMT
To be fair, almost all Greeks believed in eternal life after death, albeit not in the Nicene Heaven/Hell sense. That's definitely not a Platonic-only view.
I suppose the most biblical view of life after death is that all will sleep until the Day of Resurrection. On that day, the living and the resurrected dead will be judged according to their deeds. The righteous - either by faith in Christ or perhaps by good works - will be granted immortal, flawless, sinless bodies, and they will live forever with God and Jesus. The unrighteous will be destroyed in the Lake of Fire along with sin, death, and the grave.
Of course, you can find plenty of verses that contradict that tidy interpretation. The Bible is vague and confusing about what happens after death, and that's just the core 66 books! Add in the deuterocanon and it gets even more confusing. Then you get the Holy Tradition supposedly handed down from the Apostles and...hoo boy.
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Post by Mercy for All on May 3, 2022 23:25:25 GMT
To be fair, almost all Greeks believed in eternal life after death, albeit not in the Nicene Heaven/Hell sense. That's definitely not a Platonic-only view. I suppose the most biblical view of life after death is that all will sleep until the Day of Resurrection. On that day, the living and the resurrected dead will be judged according to their deeds. The righteous - either by faith in Christ or perhaps by good works - will be granted immortal, flawless, sinless bodies, and they will live forever with God and Jesus. The unrighteous will be destroyed in the Lake of Fire along with sin, death, and the grave. Of course, you can find plenty of verses that contradict that tidy interpretation. The Bible is vague and confusing about what happens after death, and that's just the core 66 books! Add in the deuterocanon and it gets even more confusing. Then you get the Holy Tradition supposedly handed down from the Apostles and...hoo boy. Your middle paragraph seems the most correct to me...a package of beliefs that probably evolved over time. But most "mainstream" Christians, at least in our part of the world, would hold to hell as eternal torment, and I think that's the influence of Greek culture.
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2022 15:07:48 GMT
To be fair, almost all Greeks believed in eternal life after death, albeit not in the Nicene Heaven/Hell sense. That's definitely not a Platonic-only view. I suppose the most biblical view of life after death is that all will sleep until the Day of Resurrection. On that day, the living and the resurrected dead will be judged according to their deeds. The righteous - either by faith in Christ or perhaps by good works - will be granted immortal, flawless, sinless bodies, and they will live forever with God and Jesus. The unrighteous will be destroyed in the Lake of Fire along with sin, death, and the grave. Of course, you can find plenty of verses that contradict that tidy interpretation. The Bible is vague and confusing about what happens after death, and that's just the core 66 books! Add in the deuterocanon and it gets even more confusing. Then you get the Holy Tradition supposedly handed down from the Apostles and...hoo boy. Is there anything the bible isn't vague and confusing about?
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