Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2020 17:22:53 GMT
Dismissing my salient points while demanding that the scope of the discussion be improperly limited so as to exclude those damning arguments are very poor debating tactics. It's certainly not "whataboutery" when the epidemic black on black violence is DIRECTLY related to the high frequency of police interactions. Last time I checked, the phrase "black lives matter" doesn't have a qualifier attached to it that limits the scope to "only if the police are involved".
Once again, I'm interested in looking at the whole story and the whole truth; one can't separate the effect of the black crime rate when discussing these police issues. The number of police shootings of unarmed black men is minuscule compared to other violent death causes in the black community. Do those lives also matter? Politically, it appears not.
The real reason that you leftists want us to be quiet about other black lives lost is because the majority of violent black deaths can't be blamed on anyone else but the black community itself.
You can keep those blinders on if you like, but I'm not going to join you in pretending that you can see the whole picture.
I'm ready and able to discuss those points and more but you don't seem to have any interest in discussing the problems with the police. You want to kick up dirt and muddy the water with whataboutery. You are merely shedding crocodile tears about black on black crime. Its obvious. If you and Maestro are finished with your little inane digression that added nothing to the discussion (ironic, isn't it), I'm game. Let's discuss these "problems with the police" that are to predominate all other considerations. How many unarmed black men were killed by police last year?
“Since 2015, The Washington Post has maintained a comprehensive database of fatal police shootings in this country,” said Carlson. “Last year, the Post logged 1,004 killings. Of the 802 shootings in which race of the police officer and the suspect was noted, 371 of the those killed were white; 236 were black. The vast majority of those killed were not in fact, ‘unarmed.’ The vast majority were armed, and Africans American suspects were significantly more likely to have a deadly weapon than white suspects. Yet more white suspects were killed.”
Carlson counted “precisely ten cases” listed by the Post “in which unarmed African Americans were fatally shot by police. There were nine men and one woman.”
OK, so I'm assuming that the grand total of black lives that matter were those actually lost without cause in police interactions. Is that correct? So this entire movement...all of the riots, looting, purging, extortion and vandalism....is over the loss of ten lives. THOSE are THE only black lives that matter based on the very limited scope of this debate. Just ten.
While I do agree that all of these were tragic, but this does not appear to be an epidemic. All human beings make mistakes and poor choices and should be punished for their crimes.
So, I'm assuming that statistics related to the scale of these losses vs. other violent deaths will also be called "whataboutery", so I'll await your permission to bring up any of those uncomfortable facts. Let me know.
It's not really about the lives of black people, is it? It's really nothing other than politics and power that drives the BLM and their minions.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2020 18:08:49 GMT
I'm ready and able to discuss those points and more but you don't seem to have any interest in discussing the problems with the police. You want to kick up dirt and muddy the water with whataboutery. You are merely shedding crocodile tears about black on black crime. Its obvious.
OK, so I'm assuming that the grand total of black lives that matter were those actually lost without cause in police interactions. Is that correct? So this entire movement...all of the riots, looting, purging, extortion and vandalism....is over the loss of ten lives. THOSE are THE only black lives that matter based on the very limited scope of this debate. Just ten. Its like you are purposefully trying to come up with the worst possible take. The police do more to black folks than kill them. Maybe stop taking cues from talking heads and just have a discussion like a normal person.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2020 19:30:24 GMT
|
|
RWB
Legend
Posts: 11,806
|
Post by RWB on Jun 28, 2020 5:08:32 GMT
OK, so I'm assuming that the grand total of black lives that matter were those actually lost without cause in police interactions. Is that correct? So this entire movement...all of the riots, looting, purging, extortion and vandalism....is over the loss of ten lives. THOSE are THE only black lives that matter based on the very limited scope of this debate. Just ten. Its like you are purposefully trying to come up with the worst possible take. The police do more to black folks than kill them. Maybe stop taking cues from talking heads and just have a discussion like a normal person. so I guess you'd be ok with WHITE LIVES MATTER rather than ALL LIVES MATTER? NAH All LIVES MATTER Doesn't sound Racist.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2020 18:57:35 GMT
Its like you are purposefully trying to come up with the worst possible take. The police do more to black folks than kill them. Maybe stop taking cues from talking heads and just have a discussion like a normal person. so I guess you'd be ok with WHITE LIVES MATTER rather than ALL LIVES MATTER? NAH All LIVES MATTER Doesn't sound Racist. When/if those Jamal Crow laws become our future (and white folks become 2nd class citizens) I'll join you in a white lives matter campaign.
|
|
bama beau
Legend
Fish will piss anywhere. They just live in water.
Posts: 10,323
|
Post by bama beau on Jun 28, 2020 19:06:05 GMT
I don't see anything here worth responding to but I will double down on my point. People who talk about black on black crime in the middle of this conversation about the police are simply without a clue. Its mere whataboutery and can be dismissed as such. I go back to what I posted earlier. This "What about...?" is the same tactic the left used/uses about abortion. ABORTION Pro-lifers: Aborting an unborn child is murder! Pro-choicers: Oh yeah? What about the child after it's born? What about children living in poverty? You pro-lifers never care about their lives do you? SYSTEMIC RACISM: Black Americans: Black lives matter! The state is killing us and nobody cares! White conservatives: Oh yeah? All lives matter! Besides, what about black citizens killing black citizens? You black lives matter people never care about their lives, do you? It's the exact same tactic: 1. Refuse to listen. 2. Conflate all sub issues together into one big issue. 3. Accuse the opposition of being a hypocrite for focusing on a sub-issue instead of your arbitrarily created big issue, using the imperfect name of the opposition as evidence of their hypocrisy. 4. Feel justified in refusing to pay any more attention to the opposition. This is called spin. You (not you personally, TL) can do it if you want, but don't kid yourself that you're "debating" or "discussing" anything. You're spinning, nothing more. And you're doing it because it's much easier than discussing, debating or even thinking and you are too afraid, too lazy or too unskilled to do any of those actions. Topic: Why doesn't the trumPian right understand that Black Lives Matter? Maestro: I don't know, but what about the pro-lifers when the topic is abortion? {I think someone owes me an irony meter.}
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2020 19:57:57 GMT
I go back to what I posted earlier. This "What about...?" is the same tactic the left used/uses about abortion. ABORTION Pro-lifers: Aborting an unborn child is murder! Pro-choicers: Oh yeah? What about the child after it's born? What about children living in poverty? You pro-lifers never care about their lives do you? SYSTEMIC RACISM: Black Americans: Black lives matter! The state is killing us and nobody cares! White conservatives: Oh yeah? All lives matter! Besides, what about black citizens killing black citizens? You black lives matter people never care about their lives, do you? It's the exact same tactic: 1. Refuse to listen. 2. Conflate all sub issues together into one big issue. 3. Accuse the opposition of being a hypocrite for focusing on a sub-issue instead of your arbitrarily created big issue, using the imperfect name of the opposition as evidence of their hypocrisy. 4. Feel justified in refusing to pay any more attention to the opposition. This is called spin. You (not you personally, TL) can do it if you want, but don't kid yourself that you're "debating" or "discussing" anything. You're spinning, nothing more. And you're doing it because it's much easier than discussing, debating or even thinking and you are too afraid, too lazy or too unskilled to do any of those actions. Topic: Why doesn't the trumPian right understand that Black Lives Matter? Maestro: I don't know, but what about the pro-lifers when the topic is abortion? {I think someone owes me an irony meter.}Whoa, there! You should go back and read this thread from the top, especially my earlier messages. You have seriously misunderstood my post.
|
|
|
Post by rabbitreborn on Jun 28, 2020 20:08:22 GMT
That guy’s legs might not be hurt as badly, but for your analogy to work there would be a leg injury for him as well. Individuals within every group/ethnicity/ tribe/whatever are victimized by an overly militarized and overly aggressive police force.
|
|
RWB
Legend
Posts: 11,806
|
Post by RWB on Jun 28, 2020 20:10:44 GMT
so I guess you'd be ok with WHITE LIVES MATTER rather than ALL LIVES MATTER? NAH All LIVES MATTER Doesn't sound Racist. When/if those Jamal Crow laws become our future (and white folks become 2nd class citizens) I'll join you in a white lives matter campaign. we've already become 2nd class citizens Blacks get preference in housing jobs bank loan application's. What ever happened to the most qualified person gets the job not because you have the right skin color? I don't see black business owners being forced to have a percentage of white people working for them. Reverse discrimination is not the answer either. Bottom line is until all children are taught we're all human beings and stop with the black vs white mentality nothing will ever change. #ALL LIVES MATTER regardless of skin color.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2020 20:25:18 GMT
That guy’s legs might not be hurt as badly, but for your analogy to work there would be a leg injury for him as well. Individuals within every group/ethnicity/ tribe/whatever are victimized by an overly militarized and overly aggressive police force. Yeah, that point is more or less true but the kind of folks who like to say WLM tend to be dismissive of the need to reform the police and aren't of the class of white folks who are likely to be victimized by the police. These are the folks who are police themselves, or are supporters/friends of the police. But if someone wants to join the crowd who sees the police as institutionally flawed (and in need of serious reform) & they also want to take a WLM stance to protest the treatment of folks like Daniel Shaver, I won't take issue with it. Its all about context.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2020 20:28:40 GMT
When/if those Jamal Crow laws become our future (and white folks become 2nd class citizens) I'll join you in a white lives matter campaign. we've already become 2nd class citizens Blacks get preference in housing jobs bank loan application's. What ever happened to the most qualified person gets the job not because you have the right skin color? I don't see black business owners being forced to have a percentage of white people working for them. Reverse discrimination is not the answer either. Bottom line is until all children are taught we're all human beings and stop with the black vs white mentality nothing will ever change. #ALL LIVES MATTER regardless of skin color. Nah, that's the right-wing victim persecution complex that is so hot right now. In reality, what has happened to black people is unique and the effects are still being felt today. The legacy of redlining is a great example of that.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2020 20:43:00 GMT
Race relations have become really hard recently. Go figure. The left is ginning up hatred in hopes it'll lead to voter turn out. So let's get both sides straight.
People that support BLM (not the organization, but the phrase/idea) believe that black people are unfairly and systematically targeted by the police. We can argue all day long if their belief is founded in reality or paranoia, but the fact is that is their stance. So they say "black lives matter" because they feel the system doesn't protect them.
People that say all lives matter don't agree with the BLM beliefs. They feel as if people that say "black lives matter" are looking for special treatment. The all lives matter crowd does not like the idea of special treatment for anyone.
As always, the truth lies somewhere in the middle.
I have to say that today, anyone that doesn't 100% buy into everything a black man or woman says happened to them is automatically branded a racist. That is why you see this guy in Florida shouting "white power" when he is called a racist. He's most likely sick of the B.S. and tired of arguing with them. On LNFs, it was brought up that white people are being cornered into being racist. They are almost given no choice. Hell, I even bring up inconsistencies with the George Floyd case and suddenly that means I'm making excuses for the cops. That has to stop. Intellectual pursuits must come before emotional. Especially when we are talking about race. Racism by in large does not exist in America. There may be biases and stereotypes, but hatred and discrimination based on race is largely eliminated. Let's not take any more steps back than we have. If you truly want to fight racism, stop seeing it in everything. Yes, the copier paper is white. It is white because that is the best color for printing and has nothing to do with race.
|
|
RWB
Legend
Posts: 11,806
|
Post by RWB on Jun 28, 2020 20:48:26 GMT
Race relations have become really hard recently. Go figure. The left is ginning up hatred in hopes it'll lead to voter turn out. So let's get both sides straight. People that support BLM (not the organization, but the phrase/idea) believe that black people are unfairly and systematically targeted by the police. We can argue all day long if their belief is founded in reality or paranoia, but the fact is that is their stance. So they say "black lives matter" because they feel the system doesn't protect them. People that say all lives matter don't agree with the BLM beliefs. They feel as if people that say "black lives matter" are looking for special treatment. The all lives matter crowd does not like the idea of special treatment for anyone. As always, the truth lies somewhere in the middle. I have to say that today, anyone that doesn't 100% buy into everything a black man or woman says happened to them is automatically branded a racist. That is why you see this guy in Florida shouting "white power" when he is called a racist. He's most likely sick of the B.S. and tired of arguing with them. On LNFs, it was brought up that white people are being cornered into being racist. They are almost given no choice. Hell, I even bring up inconsistencies with the George Floyd case and suddenly that means I'm making excuses for the cops. That has to stop. Intellectual pursuits must come before emotional. Especially when we are talking about race. Racism by in large does not exist in America. There may be biases and stereotypes, but hatred and discrimination based on race is largely eliminated. Let's not take any more steps back than we have. If you truly want to fight racism, stop seeing it in everything. Yes, the copier paper is white. It is white because that is the best color for printing and has nothing to do with race. very well put DITTO
|
|
Odysseus
Legend
Trump=Chump
Posts: 39,224
|
Post by Odysseus on Jun 28, 2020 21:54:00 GMT
That guy’s legs might not be hurt as badly, but for your analogy to work there would be a leg injury for him as well.Individuals within every group/ethnicity/ tribe/whatever are victimized by an overly militarized and overly aggressive police force. Wrong!
The analogy works just as is.
You have managed to miss the entire point of the BLM campaign.
It isn't that all lives don't matter, they do. The point is that systemic racism, especially in our police forces, has resulted in a dichotomy where in too many instances black lives matter far less than "all" lives.
|
|
RWB
Legend
Posts: 11,806
|
Post by RWB on Jun 28, 2020 22:44:50 GMT
That guy’s legs might not be hurt as badly, but for your analogy to work there would be a leg injury for him as well.Individuals within every group/ethnicity/ tribe/whatever are victimized by an overly militarized and overly aggressive police force. Wrong!
The analogy works just as is.
You have managed to miss the entire point of the BLM campaign.
It isn't that all lives don't matter, they do. The point is that systemic racism, especially in our police forces, has resulted in a dichotomy where in too many instances black lives matter far less than "all" lives.
BULLSHIT whites get killed by cops more than blacks BUT it equals out because there's more white people than blacks.
|
|
Odysseus
Legend
Trump=Chump
Posts: 39,224
|
Post by Odysseus on Jun 28, 2020 23:02:32 GMT
Of course, it would be wrong to expect Racist White Boy to get it.
|
|
|
Post by jasmine on Jun 28, 2020 23:19:52 GMT
The funny thing about this BLM movement is that it’s only worsening racial tensions. And that is perfectly fine.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2020 23:31:03 GMT
The funny thing about this BLM movement is that it’s only worsening racial tensions. And that is perfectly fine. Its worsening partisan tensions and that occasionally breaks along racial lines. But it is also bringing white, black and everybody in between together to protest police brutality and a tyrannical system of LE.
|
|
Odysseus
Legend
Trump=Chump
Posts: 39,224
|
Post by Odysseus on Jun 28, 2020 23:37:02 GMT
The funny thing about this BLM movement is that it’s only worsening racial tensions. And that is perfectly fine. Its worsening partisan tensions and that occasionally breaks along racial lines. But it is also bringing white, black and everybody in between together to protest police brutality and a tyrannical system of LE.
Except for Jasmine.
She's obviously pro-racism.
|
|
|
Post by jasmine on Jun 28, 2020 23:38:17 GMT
The funny thing about this BLM movement is that it’s only worsening racial tensions. And that is perfectly fine. Its worsening partisan tensions and that occasionally breaks along racial lines. But it is also bringing white, black and everybody in between together to protest police brutality and a tyrannical system of LE. That seems to be true.
|
|