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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2020 21:01:23 GMT
Proven wrong? Because there was continued rioting? Sorry, that doesn't prove the narrative wrong. DHS is not the only entity capable of pissing off protestors. Good ole fashioned local police can do that, too. And you also have instigators looking to cause trouble and shift the narrative. So I think you might be overplaying your hand with regard to this "proof." Oh geez... come on now. Don't play coy about what provocative acts we are talking about. You've seen the videos of the journalists and protestors being shot with projectiles, the Mom's being gassed, the un-marked cars and disappearing squads, etc. more Pravda bullshit from the forum Commie Feel free to point out my error. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2020 21:05:45 GMT
Proven wrong? Because there was continued rioting? Sorry, that doesn't prove the narrative wrong. DHS is not the only entity capable of pissing off protestors. Good ole fashioned local police can do that, too. And you also have instigators looking to cause trouble and shift the narrative. So I think you might be overplaying your hand with regard to this "proof." Oh geez... come on now. Don't play coy about what provocative acts we are talking about. You've seen the videos of the journalists and protestors being shot with projectiles, the Mom's being gassed, the un-marked cars and disappearing squads, etc. Did they provoke this too? Damn those cops that caused the drop kick to the head. What's not so coy is you taking isolated incidents and justifying everything we all have seen recently and saying it's the exception to the rule...and it's police presence that's teh cause. Like I said, I went further than I planned to on this thread since we discussed this already and you and I will never agree. Talk about using an isolated incident... You excuse everything the police do, even when it is outside the norms of western liberty or constitutional rights. So yes, we will never agree. Not ever. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2020 21:09:24 GMT
Talk about using an isolated incident... You excuse everything the police do, even when it is outside the norms of western liberty or constitutional rights. So yes, we will never agree. Not ever. Where did I excuse it? I said exceptions which by default means I assign blame to police when it's due. Mere presence is an excuse I don't accept. Exceptions? Nah, fam, this is policy. There is a massive problem with the way local police & DHS have handled these protests. It's not okay. And its not one or two officers. Its the whole enchilada. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2020 21:16:29 GMT
Yes we all know it's police policy to intentionallyinstigate and incite violence where they put themselves in danger.  Makes no sense. Now I suggest we end it here. I can "feel" the frustartion building on your side of the computer and I expect any post now you will call me stupid or someyhing similar since I'm backing what I say while you are speaking from a preconceived view of the police. I get it. You despise them. I also would make a small wager if it were provable that if you needed them...you woud call them. I suggest we both move on while we are both still civil. Lots of assumptions here. But I get it. Take your leave. Later. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2020 21:18:27 GMT
I can back up every single claim I have made about the police or the DHS with video. I simply assume we have already seen the videos. No need to see them for a third time, right?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2020 21:26:37 GMT
Lots of assumptions here. But I get it. Take your leave. Later. No assumptions. The videos are there in far too many instances where police are doing their job. They just don't happen to bethe ones that make your case. In fact I'm not seeing any specific ones where police incite. And before you point to the tear gas example back when Trump walked to the church, that woukd be one that could be arguable. The excpetion.... I'm not taking "my leave". I'm preventing a situation that I sense is going to go astray. Let's say, I've been there before and when I'm being provoked in lieu of any real proof to prove me wrong. Others opinions don't substitute as proof of another's view being wrong. I respect yours but I wholeheartedly disagree with it. Things seem fine to me. This is what disagreement looks like. If you can keep your cool, you know I can keep mine. That's what *I* am known for. You've seen the videos. The tear gassing peaceful protestors, the rubber bullets shot at peaceful people, including journalists. Shoving and beating people, running cars into crowds and on and on. We've all seen it. Its all over social media. I'm really not trying to go dredging through all that stuff. But if you insist that I must, I will. Or you could just admit that the police have done some f***** up s*** lately and own some blame here. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2020 21:32:53 GMT
Things seem fine to me. This is what disagreement looks like. If you can keep your cool, you know I can keep mine. That's what *I* am known for. You've seen the videos. The tear gassing peaceful protestors, the rubber bullets shot at peaceful people, including journalists. Shoving and beating people, and on and on. We've all seen it. Its all over social media. I'm really not trying to go dredging through all that stuff. But if you insist that I must, I will. Or you could just admit that the police have done some f***** up s*** lately and own some blame here. And you can just as easily point to what are likely millions of police responses around the country where they are peacefully resolved. But you ignore that. It seems that you missed, perhaps intentionally where I agreed with you in part but reject that it's all police are bad. So be it. I'm not making an argument, in this thread, about what the police do around the country in all those various interactions. I am talking about the violence they instigated in these protests, both the locals and the feds. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2020 21:42:54 GMT
Things seem fine to me. This is what disagreement looks like. If you can keep your cool, you know I can keep mine. That's what *I* am known for. You've seen the videos. The tear gassing peaceful protestors, the rubber bullets shot at peaceful people, including journalists. Shoving and beating people, and on and on. We've all seen it. Its all over social media. I'm really not trying to go dredging through all that stuff. But if you insist that I must, I will. Or you could just admit that the police have done some f***** up s*** lately and own some blame here Funny how discussions evolve. I can agree that in some case you are right but you can't admit even though you know it..that all police are not bad. Where did I ever say *all* police are bad? I've spoken about bad laws and poor incentives. But I've never claimed that there is something uniquely different or bad about police officers. They are a lot like politicians: normal people in systems that bring out the worst in them as often as not. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2020 21:54:20 GMT
I'm not making an argument, in this thread, about what the police do around the country in those millions of responses. I am talking about the violence they instigated in these protests, both the locals and the feds. And again no one said there were no instances...just that those few instances are the exceptions and not the rule. I see you have come full circle. You're back to you blaming police presence as always the justification for the bad willful behavior of others. There have been peaceful protests that evolved inoto violent ones that had nothing to do with the poice being there but outside instigators...but you will still say it wouldn't have happned if the police weren't there. How many times times have I said that I get it that you don't like the police and see them as the cause in nearly every circumstance while discounting the solid fact given to you...that being...you don't want to discuss all the peacefully resolved calls they handle only becasue it destroys your narrative. Last time...the few bad apples spoil the whole bunch. You can't discuss only the cops that make your case while ignoring all the ones that destroy your narrative. It'sdisingenuous to cherry pick and then paint all cops with a broad stroke. Have the last word and enjoy the evening. I'm not making an absolutist argument that *all* violence in protests is the result of police instigation. That's nutty. I am simply saying that we know the police have some responsibility with what happened in these recent protests. Regarding the claim that all cops are bad, show me the quote. I don't think I have ever made such a claim. I'm too slick for that. Rather than focus on individual officers, I focus on systems and incentives. The problem with the police is institutional, just like the power with the politicians. We don't fix it by putting new people in their place, as if we could simply find "good people." We fix it by making the rules such that even imperfect or flawed people are led to socially beneficial conduct, on net. We need institutions that nudge us in the right way, not in the wrong. That's what the institutional fix is all about: new rules and incentives and new nudges. We can't blame the officers themselves because politicians are nudging them in the wrong way. You blame the politicians and the community that asked for that kind of policing. Focusing on the police themselves get us distracted from the important institutional questions, it bogs us down in petty tribal bs. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2020 22:13:58 GMT
I'm not making an absolutist argument that *all* violence in protests is the result of police instigation. That's nutty. I am simply saying that we know the police have some responsibility with what happened in these recent protests. Regarding the claim that all cops are bad, show me the quote. I don't think I have ever made such a claim. I'm too slick for that. Rather than focus on individual officers, I focus on systems and incentives. The problem with the police is institutional, just like the power with the politicians. We don't fix it by putting new people in their place, as if we could simply find "good people." We fix it by making the rules such that even imperfect or flawed people are led to socially beneficial conduct, on net. We need institutions that nudge us in the right way, not in the wrong. That's what the institutional fix is all about: new rules and incentives and new nudges. We can't blame the officers themselves because politicians are nudging them in the wrong way. You blame the politicians, and the community that asked for that kind of policing. Focusing on the police themselves get us distracted from the important institutional questions, it bogs us down in petty tribal bs. I guess that's a coy way of they are too stupid to think for themselves. I see more than a few resigned willingly. The politicians should also be credited for tying their hands as well. To your larger point before I get accuses of altering your meaning by bolding one point that I wanted to address separately. I believe I covered the system in my above post. No tribal BS on my part. There certainly are bad cops and more good ones. Some are the product of poor training while some subjected to that same poor training end up being just good cops. Whether it's the system or not, it's really not hard to admit that there are more good cops than rogues cops. We're back to the exception to the rule no matter the cause...the individual or the sytem of training. See we went from you saying cops presence provoke in particular instances in this case the protests to now saying it's their training...the larger issue. They aren't mutually exclusive. I never said that training can't be improved.. If I recall I said that the last time in our former go around. Now I'm being polite when I say that I am tiring of the tediousness of going around in circles as I am sure you are as well. So as I said before. Have the last word and let's move on. Its not coy to admit people respond to incentives. That's basic. The problem is not "rogue cops." The problem is everyday, normal, by-the-book policing. The roque cops you mention (who get caught shooting people in their backs, killing peaceful dogs, faking warrants, planting drugs, etc) are a visible problem but statistically they are less relevant. They aren't the problem, by and large. Like I said, the problem is the everyday normal stuff that cops are forced to do because of the rules and laws politicians have made for them. For starters, axe civil asset forfeiture and the war on drugs. Next, revisit use of force protocols. Third, take a second look at qualified immunity. Or we could keep burning or Nike's and with them, the ties that bind our communities together. |
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Post by crepe05 on Aug 17, 2020 22:41:25 GMT
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OMG, ... you should hear yourself, and you dare to talk about Queshank?  Oh, .. you got balls alright, but, they are badly misplaced! Stu, even on your own side, you're not considered to be the brightest.
There is always a spectrum of intelligence in a group, and well, you are on the low side of it.
That alone is not a cause to disrespect you, however. It is your lack of awareness that you ARE on the low side which is. You think you're a pretty smart person, which is why we rarely disagree with you, because we are too busy nodding our heads or outright laughing at what you say.
I'm just being honest. I would want to know.
Freon
And just how do you know that even on his side he's not considered the brightest? I certainly have never been asked and I wouldn't answer anyway because it's nobody's business. Including myself, I don't know anyone who I think, "Dang, he/she is smarter than I am. I think I'll believe everything he/she says." My advice, take what you like and leave the rest. Have fun. Life remains good. Naturally I believe that you should vote for Donald J. Trump, but I won't say that. |
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Post by limey² on Aug 17, 2020 22:58:29 GMT
A sentient being would probably think "Why do they hate us so much?" and put some time into that, if they truly believed this was the all encompassing basis for Trump's support. But then, said sentient being would probably have to put some thought into "Why do I hate *them* so much?" and that's not something I've seen too many leftists do.
And the ones I have seen put some thought into it, are now voting for Trump.
Queshank Curiosity: is it hate, the American left have for the slobbering dick element of Mr. Trump's supporters descr6 in the OP, or contempt, or disdain? The parallels with our own Brexit tragedy are strong; Brexiteers are held in scorn by the better educated, wealthier Remainers. Not hatred. |
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Post by freonbale on Aug 17, 2020 23:02:31 GMT
Stu, even on your own side, you're not considered to be the brightest.
There is always a spectrum of intelligence in a group, and well, you are on the low side of it.
That alone is not a cause to disrespect you, however. It is your lack of awareness that you ARE on the low side which is. You think you're a pretty smart person, which is why we rarely disagree with you, because we are too busy nodding our heads or outright laughing at what you say.
I'm just being honest. I would want to know.
Freon
And just how do you know that even on his side he's not considered the brightest? I certainly have never been asked and I wouldn't answer anyway because it's nobody's business. Including myself, I don't know anyone who I think, "Dang, he/she is smarter than I am. I think I'll believe everything he/she says." My advice, take what you like and leave the rest. Have fun. Life remains good. Naturally I believe that you should vote for Donald J. Trump, but I won't say that. If you have to ask, then any explanation I provide would be insulting to you.
My advice? Don't just take, and leave the rest. Give, it's more healthy for your soul. Do have fun, but stop being a best friend to anger. Life DOES remain good, if you choose to see it that way.
Freon
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Post by petep on Aug 17, 2020 23:04:47 GMT
It’s radical left thinking that will get trump re-elected. With I believe 800k police around the country. Most who are good decent people.
With the attacks against them by the riopeters black lives matter scum and ivory tower liberals they will mostly vote trump.
For the first time in decades the national police union is not supporting the dem candidate.
I don’t blame them. The marxists and socialists and anarchists who have longed for the destruction of private property are in their atheist heaven.
The rest of us want the scum to stay in their cesspools.
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Post by freonbale on Aug 17, 2020 23:07:31 GMT
It’s radical left thinking that will get trump re-elected. With I believe 800k police around the country. Most who are good decent people. With the attacks against them by the riopeters black lives matter scum and ivory tower liberals they will mostly vote trump. For the first time in decades the national police union is not supporting the dem candidate. I don’t blame them. The marxists and socialists and anarchists who have longed for the destruction of private property are in their atheist heaven. The rest of us want the scum to stay in their cesspools. Do you hear yourself? Scum? Ivory Tower Liberals? Marxists? Socialists? Anarchists?
It is a litany of labels, not an actual informed opinion.
That's why we don't use them back at you. We just think you're stupid.
Freon
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Post by petep on Aug 17, 2020 23:45:29 GMT
Freon, honestly. Did you listen to the blm spokesperson a few days ago after more brutality and looting and rioting in Chicago. We deserve this. This is reparations. Besides it’s free because these businesses have insurance.
Have you ever read thru the democratic socialists of America website. Or reviewed their summary from their last national convention
I’m labeling them because this is what they are. What they claim. Do you deny the videos and photos. You sound like Iran’s leaders denying the holocaust ever took place.
We all see what is going on. We don’t all watch the mainstream media who have blacked out what is going on.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2020 0:42:29 GMT
Nothing I've read NAILS Trump supporters better than this anonymous piece.. . ..
"You all don't get it. I live in Trump country, in the Ozarks in southern Missouri, one of the last places where the KKK still has a relatively strong established presence. They don't give a shit what he does. He's just something to rally around and hate liberals, that's it, period. He absolutely realizes that and plays it up, they love it, he knows they love it, and the fact that people act like it's anything other than that just proves that liberals are idiots, all the more reason for high fives all around.
If you keep getting caught up in why do they not realize blah blah blah and how can they still back him after blah blah blah, you are not understanding what is the underlying motivating factor of his support. It's FUCK LIBERALS, that's pretty much it.
Have you noticed he can do pretty much anything imaginable and they'll explain some way that rationalizes it that makes zero logical sense? Because they're not even keeping track of any logical narrative, it's irrelevant, fuck liberals is the only relevant thing, trust me, I know first hand what I'm talking about. That's why they just laugh at it all, because you all don't even realize they really truly don't give a fuck about whatever the conversation is about, it's just a side mission story that doesn't really matter anyway. That's all just trivial details - the economy, health care, whatever. FUCK LIBERALS.
Look at the thing with not wearing the masks. I can tell you what that's about. It's about exposing fear. They're playing chicken with nature and whoever flinches just moved down their internal pecking order, one step closer to being a liberal.
You gotta understand the one core value that they hold above all others is hatred for what they consider weakness, because that's what they believe strength is, hatred for weakness. And I mean passionate, sadistic hatred. And I'm not exaggerating. Sadistic, passionate hatred, and that's what proves they're strong, their passionate hatred for weakness. Sometimes they lump in vulnerability, a compromised circumstance, or an overwhelming circumstance in there with weakness, too, because people tend to start humbling themselves when they're in those circumstances and that's an obvious sign of weakness.
Kindness=weakness. Honesty=weakness. Compromise=weakness. They consider their very existence to be superior in every way to anyone who doesn't hate weakness as much as they do. They consider liberals to be weak people that are inferior, almost a different species, and the fact that liberals are so weak is why they have to unite in large numbers, which they find disgusting, but it's that disgust that is a true expression of their natural superiority.
Go ahead and try to have a logical, rational conversation with them though. Just keep in mind what I said here and think about it.
Near perfect ... Don't you think?
All this nails is the delusions of the left. They actually believe that Russia helped Trump, that he praised white supremacists and all the other conspiracy theories that low IQ bloggers and MSNBC hosts espouse. |
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Post by Fiddler on Aug 18, 2020 13:51:09 GMT
Nothing I've read NAILS Trump supporters better than this anonymous piece.. . ..
"You all don't get it. I live in Trump country, in the Ozarks in southern Missouri, one of the last places where the KKK still has a relatively strong established presence. They don't give a shit what he does. He's just something to rally around and hate liberals, that's it, period. He absolutely realizes that and plays it up, they love it, he knows they love it, and the fact that people act like it's anything other than that just proves that liberals are idiots, all the more reason for high fives all around.
If you keep getting caught up in why do they not realize blah blah blah and how can they still back him after blah blah blah, you are not understanding what is the underlying motivating factor of his support. It's FUCK LIBERALS, that's pretty much it.
Have you noticed he can do pretty much anything imaginable and they'll explain some way that rationalizes it that makes zero logical sense? Because they're not even keeping track of any logical narrative, it's irrelevant, fuck liberals is the only relevant thing, trust me, I know first hand what I'm talking about. That's why they just laugh at it all, because you all don't even realize they really truly don't give a fuck about whatever the conversation is about, it's just a side mission story that doesn't really matter anyway. That's all just trivial details - the economy, health care, whatever. FUCK LIBERALS.
Look at the thing with not wearing the masks. I can tell you what that's about. It's about exposing fear. They're playing chicken with nature and whoever flinches just moved down their internal pecking order, one step closer to being a liberal.
You gotta understand the one core value that they hold above all others is hatred for what they consider weakness, because that's what they believe strength is, hatred for weakness. And I mean passionate, sadistic hatred. And I'm not exaggerating. Sadistic, passionate hatred, and that's what proves they're strong, their passionate hatred for weakness. Sometimes they lump in vulnerability, a compromised circumstance, or an overwhelming circumstance in there with weakness, too, because people tend to start humbling themselves when they're in those circumstances and that's an obvious sign of weakness.
Kindness=weakness. Honesty=weakness. Compromise=weakness. They consider their very existence to be superior in every way to anyone who doesn't hate weakness as much as they do. They consider liberals to be weak people that are inferior, almost a different species, and the fact that liberals are so weak is why they have to unite in large numbers, which they find disgusting, but it's that disgust that is a true expression of their natural superiority.
Go ahead and try to have a logical, rational conversation with them though. Just keep in mind what I said here and think about it.
Near perfect ... Don't you think?
All this nails is the delusions of the left. They actually believe that Russia helped Trump, that he praised white supremacists and all the other conspiracy theories that low IQ bloggers and MSNBC hosts espouse.
It's not a matter of "belief" .. It's a matter of record. It's completely unnecessary to 'make up' shit about President Bone Spurs ..
If you don't see that this is true then you're simply willfully ignorant or incredibly gullible.. There are no other explanations.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2020 14:58:15 GMT
A sentient being would probably think "Why do they hate us so much?" and put some time into that, if they truly believed this was the all encompassing basis for Trump's support. But then, said sentient being would probably have to put some thought into "Why do I hate *them* so much?" and that's not something I've seen too many leftists do.
And the ones I have seen put some thought into it, are now voting for Trump.
Queshank Curiosity: is it hate, the American left have for the slobbering dick element of Mr. Trump's supporters descr6 in the OP, or contempt, or disdain? The parallels with our own Brexit tragedy are strong; Brexiteers are held in scorn by the better educated, wealthier Remainers. Not hatred.
Fun discussion topic:
What's the difference?
Queshank
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Post by Fiddler on Aug 22, 2020 18:08:39 GMT
A sentient being would probably think "Why do they hate us so much?" and put some time into that, if they truly believed this was the all encompassing basis for Trump's support. But then, said sentient being would probably have to put some thought into "Why do I hate *them* so much?" and that's not something I've seen too many leftists do.
And the ones I have seen put some thought into it, are now voting for Trump.
Queshank Curiosity: is it hate, the American left have for the slobbering dick element of Mr. Trump's supporters descr6 in the OP, or contempt, or disdain? The parallels with our own Brexit tragedy are strong; Brexiteers are held in scorn by the better educated, wealthier Remainers. Not hatred.
Hate? .. No. These people are our friends and family. We're disgusted with their gullibility.. their apparent malleability and their rejection of common decency.
The insanity we see today can be directly connected to the Republican attacks on broadcast journalism during the 80s and the rise of right-wing propaganda outlets in the 90s. .. In the 80s Reagan demonize Liberalism. He stoked division giving Republicans permission to despise Liberals. Radio and television productions, most notably Rupert Murdoch of Fox News fame, were quick to capitalize on this division. They weaponized hate.
I recall warning my friends and family at the time that their personality was changing.. becoming more easily irritated.. less empathetic. I have a childhood friend that has withdrawn completely because I supported Bill Clinton in the 90s.
Certainly the Left/Right chasm has widened and narrowed in the past but nothing as ever pushed us apart as far as has the corruption of the Right by right-wing media influences..
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Makes no sense. Now I suggest we end it here. I can "feel" the frustartion building on your side of the computer and I expect any post now you will call me stupid or someyhing similar since I'm backing what I say while you are speaking from a preconceived view of the police.
Oh, .. you got balls alright, but, they are badly misplaced! 
