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Post by MojoJojo on Jun 20, 2020 13:32:14 GMT
I get it. There's a drive to tear down false idols, and I agree with a lot of it. But Byrd? His life arc mirrored the country's progress. Started out KKK and ended up endorsing Obama! He was no Strom Thurmond or, to lesser degree Jesse Helms or Jeff Sessions. Oh well, if they wanna remove Byrd's name from everything in WV it'll lower the unemplyment 'cause it's gonna take some work.  |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2020 14:22:51 GMT
While apparently refusing to value, or even acknowledge that same capacity in others. Sorry, but I don't think it works that way. If Byrd's change doesn't count, neither does the school's. By this logic, the only consistent option is for the school to accept permanent, unconditional condemnation and shut their doors forever. |
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Post by william on Jun 20, 2020 14:37:44 GMT
Whil apparently refusing to value, or even acknowledge that same capacity in others. Sorry, but I don't think it works that way. If Byrd's change doesn't count, neither does the school's. By this logic, the only consistent option is for the school to accept permanent, unconditional condemnation and shut their doors forever. There is a lot more coming you may not understand. Pendulums usually swing back way past center. This has been a long time coming. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2020 15:15:05 GMT
Whil apparently refusing to value, or even acknowledge that same capacity in others. Sorry, but I don't think it works that way. If Byrd's change doesn't count, neither does the school's. By this logic, the only consistent option is for the school to accept permanent, unconditional condemnation and shut their doors forever. There is a lot more coming you may not understand. Pendulums usually swing back way past center. This has been a long time coming. What is it that you think I "may not understand"? |
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Post by MojoJojo on Jun 20, 2020 15:36:58 GMT
Whil apparently refusing to value, or even acknowledge that same capacity in others. Sorry, but I don't think it works that way. If Byrd's change doesn't count, neither does the school's. By this logic, the only consistent option is for the school to accept permanent, unconditional condemnation and shut their doors forever. Logic and reason tend to get swept aside when emotion is running high. :/ He was (still is, really) lionized here, primarily for his ability to get Federal funds to his poor, rural state. I loved the man for his stance and vote on the authorization to invade Iraq in 2003... www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxWfawiufK0But most importantly, the arc of his life... |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2020 22:00:19 GMT
Whil apparently refusing to value, or even acknowledge that same capacity in others. Sorry, but I don't think it works that way. If Byrd's change doesn't count, neither does the school's. By this logic, the only consistent option is for the school to accept permanent, unconditional condemnation and shut their doors forever. Logic and reason tend to get swept aside when emotion is running high. :/ He was (still is, really) lionized here, primarily for his ability to get Federal funds to his poor, rural state. I loved the man for his stance and vote on the authorization to invade Iraq in 2003... www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxWfawiufK0But most importantly, the arc of his life... Here's the thing. If you want to rename the building because the guy used to say (and write) some pretty horrible things about black people and because he once belonged to the KKK and you sympathize with those in your community that believe it should be taken down on those grounds, then do it. I wouldn't even comment on this thread in that case. But please, don't remove his name while touting your own "capacity to change" as one of the reasons. That's just self-serving nonsense. The man began renouncing the KKK in the 1950's and went on to describe it as the biggest mistake of his life. If you value "capacity to change," then keeping his name would be the right thing to do in this instance, or at least having a dialogue about it. |
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RWB
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Post by RWB on Jun 20, 2020 22:06:47 GMT
Finally Robert KKK Byrd is being recognized for the Racist Democrat that he was.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2020 22:36:02 GMT
This is too funny for words. The hypocrisy of the liberals is nearly beyond belief. When it's one of their own, the run to his defense to tell us that Byrd's legacy was far more complex than this one characteristic that he's being dethroned for.
Try that very legitimate defense in relation to Confederate monuments and the complex but brave men and the ideas that they represent and the defenders are called racists and told that the facts and the truth don't matter, just the original sin. No nuance allowed, nothing redeeming is admissible. Reign of terror, 2020 edition.
The test of character and integrity comes when you are challenged to defend a point of view that you might vehemently disagree with. On this, the liberals have failed, choosing instead to gleefully watch as these animals destroy anything that they don't like and extort changes like this under the threat of terrorizing any who don't comply.
Welcome to the ranks of those of us being purged. I'll save you a seat in the boxcar when they round us up for transportation to the camps.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2020 23:50:42 GMT
This is too funny for words. The hypocrisy of the liberals is nearly beyond belief. When it's one of their own, the run to his defense... Who are you talking about? I'm sure Mojo identifies as a liberal, but his post was hardly an example of "running to his defense." It was a fairly mild disagreement that ended with a joke. And stu's and Solar's confusion to the contrary, I'm no liberal and my complaint was about their reason for doing so, not the fact that they did it at all. I could care less if his name is kept or not. Mot my State, not my senator. I've said before that I think we'd all be better off not naming things after politicians until they've been dead for a generation anyway. Give their legacy a chance to sink in and be evaluated apart from the heat of the moment. I think you're slaying monsters that don't exist. |
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Post by william on Jun 22, 2020 14:22:01 GMT
There is a lot more coming you may not understand. Pendulums usually swing back way past center. This has been a long time coming. What is it that you think I "may not understand"? Look at the roadrunner post. Some names are confusing to low information people. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2020 15:21:54 GMT
What is it that you think I "may not understand"? Look at the roadrunner post. Some names are confusing to low information people. What about it? The right calling Byrd a racist klansman is nothing new. When your guy repents (Trump used to praise Hillary Clinton and used to be pro-choice) the change is sincere. When it's the other guy (Byrd in this case), repentance is not to be considered. I don't mean to sound harsh, but it would be helpful if you would directly answer my earlier question. Message boards don't really accommodate beating around the bush very well. |
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Post by william on Jun 22, 2020 15:35:55 GMT
Look at the roadrunner post. Some names are confusing to low information people. What about it? The right calling Byrd a racist klansman is nothing new. When your guy repents (Trump used to praise Hillary Clinton and used to be pro-choice) the change is sincere. When it's the other guy (Byrd in this case), repentance is not to be considered. I don't mean to sound harsh, but it would be helpful if you would directly answer my earlier question. Message boards don't really accommodate beating around the bush very well. Walkace repented, but I don't think statues and his name on buildings is helpful to ending this fight. He and Byrd belong in museums and history books, where their whole stories can be taught. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2020 15:36:42 GMT
This is too funny for words. The hypocrisy of the liberals is nearly beyond belief. When it's one of their own, the run to his defense... Who are you talking about? I'm sure Mojo identifies as a liberal, but his post was hardly an example of "running to his defense." It was a fairly mild disagreement that ended with a joke. And stu's and Solar's confusion to the contrary, I'm no liberal and my complaint was about their reason for doing so, not the fact that they did it at all. I could care less if his name is kept or not. Mot my State, not my senator. I've said before that I think we'd all be better off not naming things after politicians until they've been dead for a generation anyway. Give their legacy a chance to sink in and be evaluated apart from the heat of the moment. I think you're slaying monsters that don't exist. Certainly wasn't aiming at you Maestro, just commenting on the general tone (sentiments THAT I SUPPORT) to look at the whole of the man, not one instance in his history. I just wish that this laudable standard was being applied across the board. No one's a saint and few are total sinners. That's why normal people have left these relatively harmless namings and monuments alone.
While there's a tendency to condemn, we should all remember the following truisms from the Bible
He who is without sin, cast the first stone (at her).
Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
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Post by william on Jun 22, 2020 15:57:27 GMT
Who are you talking about? I'm sure Mojo identifies as a liberal, but his post was hardly an example of "running to his defense." It was a fairly mild disagreement that ended with a joke. And stu's and Solar's confusion to the contrary, I'm no liberal and my complaint was about their reason for doing so, not the fact that they did it at all. I could care less if his name is kept or not. Mot my State, not my senator. I've said before that I think we'd all be better off not naming things after politicians until they've been dead for a generation anyway. Give their legacy a chance to sink in and be evaluated apart from the heat of the moment. I think you're slaying monsters that don't exist. Certainly wasn't aiming at you Maestro, just commenting on the general tone (sentiments THAT I SUPPORT) to look at the whole of the man, not one instance in his history. I just wish that this laudable standard was being applied across the board. No one's a saint and few are total sinners. That's why normal people have left these relatively harmless namings and monuments alone.
While there's a tendency to condemn, we should all remember the following truisms from the Bible
He who is without sin, cast the first stone (at her).
Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
The statues have nothing to do with the men. They were put there to intimidate, palin and simple. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2020 16:22:24 GMT
Certainly wasn't aiming at you Maestro, just commenting on the general tone (sentiments THAT I SUPPORT) to look at the whole of the man, not one instance in his history. I just wish that this laudable standard was being applied across the board. No one's a saint and few are total sinners. That's why normal people have left these relatively harmless namings and monuments alone.
While there's a tendency to condemn, we should all remember the following truisms from the Bible
He who is without sin, cast the first stone (at her).
Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
The statues have nothing to do with the men. They were put there to intimidate, palin and simple. Not at all. The statues began going up as veterans on both sides were publishing their memories of the war. It was a sign of the interest in what "grandpa" did during the war, not a campaign of intimidation. Many were put up by groups of old ladies (UDC), for goodness sake! If the statues were "put there to intimidate", why were they all monument to soldiers, not politicians? These were honors for tired old soldiers telling their stories, nothing more or less. They fought bravely for their homes, their state and their nation, and the vast majority did NOT fight for slavery.
These were statues of simple soldiers on horseback or a plain ragged soldier standing with a rifle. Taking those down is more a sign of the intolerance of the ignorant mob removing them than the motivations of those who erected the monuments in the first place.
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Post by Fiddler on Jun 22, 2020 17:30:31 GMT
The statues have nothing to do with the men. They were put there to intimidate, palin and simple. Not at all. The statues began going up as veterans on both sides were publishing their memories of the war. It was a sign of the interest in what "grandpa" did during the war, not a campaign of intimidation. Many were put up by groups of old ladies (UDC), for goodness sake! If the statues were "put there to intimidate", why were they all monument to soldiers, not politicians? These were honors for tired old soldiers telling their stories, nothing more or less. They fought bravely for their homes, their state and their nation, and the vast majority did NOT fight for slavery.
These were statues of simple soldiers on horseback or a plain ragged soldier standing with a rifle. Taking those down is more a sign of the intolerance of the ignorant mob removing them than the motivations of those who erected the monuments in the first place.
The wannabe slaver's ability to mine and process bullshit into its purest form.. i.e. Lost Cause .. is legendary ..
Poor fool .. You've allowed the mindless flapping of your lips driven by your negationist lies to embarrass you again. .. A smaller percentage of the monuments to Southern traitors were erected in the years immediately following the South's defeat. They were put in place by private groups usurping public space. The hundreds and hundreds of Confederate memorials that in the years followed was a concerted effort by defeated Southerners to demoralize Blacks and to demonstrate White Supremacy to the locals.. They were primarily installed at times when conservative Southerns were either putting Jim Crow laws into place or fighting to prevent civil rights for Blacks.
Below is a timeline for Confederate Monuments.. All but the most purebred revisionist will immediately see the mind of the Confederate at work ..
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2020 18:48:44 GMT
Not at all. The statues began going up as veterans on both sides were publishing their memories of the war. It was a sign of the interest in what "grandpa" did during the war, not a campaign of intimidation. Many were put up by groups of old ladies (UDC), for goodness sake! If the statues were "put there to intimidate", why were they all monument to soldiers, not politicians? These were honors for tired old soldiers telling their stories, nothing more or less. They fought bravely for their homes, their state and their nation, and the vast majority did NOT fight for slavery.
These were statues of simple soldiers on horseback or a plain ragged soldier standing with a rifle. Taking those down is more a sign of the intolerance of the ignorant mob removing them than the motivations of those who erected the monuments in the first place.
The wannabe slaver's ability to mine and process bullshit into its purest form.. i.e. Lost Cause .. is legendary ..
Poor fool .. You've allowed the mindless flapping of your lips driven by your negationist lies to embarrass you again. .. A smaller percentage of the monuments to Southern traitors were erected in the years immediately following the South's defeat. They were put in place by private groups usurping public space. The hundreds and hundreds of Confederate memorials that in the years followed was a concerted effort by defeated Southerners to demoralize Blacks and to demonstrate White Supremacy to the locals.. They were primarily installed at times when conservative Southerns were either putting Jim Crow laws into place or fighting to prevent civil rights for Blacks.
Below is a timeline for Confederate Monuments.. All but the most purebred revisionist will immediately see the mind of the Confederate at work ..
There are no lies from me here, but this fiction from you above would certainly qualify.
You just don't know history at all, do you? You mention the "years immediately following the South's defeat", without considering that the first eleven years after the war were consumed by a Nazi style occupation of the South by Yankee scum....it was called Reconstruction, but I guess you missed that part of history class.
Those brutal Northern troops and most of their carpetbagger allies were ousted after the 1876 election, so there's your starting point And keep in mind that it took years for the Southern economy to recover after reconstruction so the 1890-1920 time frame makes sense for towns and states actually having funds for the majority of the monuments. But the reasoning that you claim is pure fiction; your spew is nothing more than 21st century propaganda and is not based on 19th century facts. The monuments first went up when interest in the history of the war was increasing (lots of books, reunions, literature, biographies) and the veterans were getting older. Families were honoring their service, nothing more. As far as a second wave coinciding with the "civil rights" era of the 1960s, only an idiot fails to note that the 1960s was the centennial of the war.
Almost all are military monuments, not some generic diatribe espousing the politics of the Confederacy. These monuments expressed only one message "You fought bravely. Honor those who never returned for their sacrifice. Thank you for your service." Was the Iwo Jima memorial erected to be a smear against the Japanese? That's the same flawed logic that you're using.
Thanks for yet another chance to school ignorant liberals on the details and facts of history that destroys their propaganda every time.
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Post by Greg55_99 on Jun 22, 2020 18:52:23 GMT
The wannabe slaver's ability to mine and process bullshit into its purest form.. i.e. Lost Cause .. is legendary ..
Poor fool .. You've allowed the mindless flapping of your lips driven by your negationist lies to embarrass you again. .. A smaller percentage of the monuments to Southern traitors were erected in the years immediately following the South's defeat. They were put in place by private groups usurping public space. The hundreds and hundreds of Confederate memorials that in the years followed was a concerted effort by defeated Southerners to demoralize Blacks and to demonstrate White Supremacy to the locals.. They were primarily installed at times when conservative Southerns were either putting Jim Crow laws into place or fighting to prevent civil rights for Blacks.
Below is a timeline for Confederate Monuments.. All but the most purebred revisionist will immediately see the mind of the Confederate at work ..
There are no lies from me here, but this fiction from you above would certainly qualify.
You just don't know history at all, do you? You mention the "years immediately following the South's defeat", without considering that the first eleven years after the war were consumed by a Nazi style occupation of the South by Yankee s....it was called Reconstruction, but I guess you missed that part of history class.
Those brutal Northern troops and most of their carpetbagger allies were ousted after the 1876 election, so there's your starting point And keep in mind that it took years for the Southern economy to recover after reconstruction so the 1890-1920 time frame makes sense for towns and states actually having funds for the majority of the monuments. But the reasoning that you claim is pure fiction; your spew is nothing more than 21st century propaganda and is not based on 19th century facts. The monuments first went up when interest in the history of the war was increasing (lots of books, reunions, literature, biographies) and the veterans were getting older. Families were honoring their service, nothing more. As far as a second wave coinciding with the "civil rights" era of the 1960s, only an idiot fails to note that the 1960s was the centennial of the war.
Almost all are military monuments, not some generic diatribe espousing the politics of the Confederacy. These monuments expressed only one message "You fought bravely. Honor those who never returned for their sacrifice. Thank you for your service." Was the Iwo Jima memorial erected to be a smear against the Japanese? That's the same flawed logic that you're using.
Thanks for yet another chance to school ignorant liberals on the details and facts of history that destroys their propaganda every time.
Actually, the monuments say "You fought to keep 3.9 million people in bondage and put rifle balls into the heads of soldiers of the United States". Glad you lost. Greg |
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