|
|
Post by limey² on Jul 15, 2021 19:29:55 GMT
It's a bit uncertain whether revovery - immunity offers protection (a) for as long as and (b) against new variants as well as vaccines; the latter point will diminish in uncertainty as variant sequencing of patients develops in scale and variant vaccines come on stream. The length of the immunity is more certain for natural infection than for vaccines. This is because, like I said, natural infection has been around much longer. I don't get how someone can argue "well, you don't know how long natural immunity lasts", while simultaneously arguing that this is why you should get a vaccine, that has the exact same unknown, but to a greater degree. The latest study I saw for natural infection (which was admittedly a month or more ago) said at least 9 months, but because people were still showing high levels of immunity at 9 months (which was the longest term data they had) the expectation is it doesn't just plummet to nothing suddenly. Well, I have never seen evidence that natural immunity or vaccines differ on any of the known variants to the extent that someone wouldn't be protected from either one. For me it's largely academic; I'm double-jabbed and will be on the list dor whatever boosters come along due to being IDDM and deemed "at risk". As production ramps up I'm not sure what the ethics of taking another shot = depriving someone else may be; possibly it'll be like the kid who, when told "eat up your dinner there are starving kids in Africa" replies "well wrap it up and send it there then". Is the limit factor on 3rd World vaccination going to be production, in say 6 or 8 months time? I don't know. Certainly for most people there's a very, very low risk indeed from vaccination and a greater risk from C19. For young healthy people it's effectively negligible for both (although the "long covid" story is beginning to sound a little more than a footnote and worth watching). The questions over length and quality of protection seem not yet to have firm answers. Very interesting ptogramme on BBC radio today on it. I like it when people are allowed to say "we don't know" on broadcast media. |
|
petep
Legend
Posts: 26,009
|
Post by petep on Jul 15, 2021 19:34:02 GMT
For much of the world not getting vaccinated - 3rd world. - it has more to do - if fact all to do - with the infrastructure there and the vaccine storage requirements. The vaccines go bad.
|
|
|
|
Post by wyattstorch on Jul 15, 2021 19:42:42 GMT
The length of the immunity is more certain for natural infection than for vaccines. This is because, like I said, natural infection has been around much longer. I don't get how someone can argue "well, you don't know how long natural immunity lasts", while simultaneously arguing that this is why you should get a vaccine, that has the exact same unknown, but to a greater degree. The latest study I saw for natural infection (which was admittedly a month or more ago) said at least 9 months, but because people were still showing high levels of immunity at 9 months (which was the longest term data they had) the expectation is it doesn't just plummet to nothing suddenly. Well, I have never seen evidence that natural immunity or vaccines differ on any of the known variants to the extent that someone wouldn't be protected from either one. For me it's largely academic; I'm double-jabbed and will be on the list dor whatever boosters come along due to being IDDM and deemed "at risk". As production ramps up I'm not sure what the ethics of taking another shot = depriving someone else may be; possibly it'll be like the kid who, when told "eat up your dinner there are starving kids in Africa" replies "well wrap it up and send it there then". Is the limit factor on 3rd World vaccination going to be production, in say 6 or 8 months time? I don't know. But right now, the more the first world eats up, the less there is to send to countries where the virus is raging and churning out variants. This is not what the discussion is about. I haven't argued that someone should go out and get covid for the purpose of gaining immunity to covid. That would make no sense. We are discussing individuals who have already had and recovered from covid. Not comparing uninfected people who do and don't get vaccinated. I think that discussion is long settled. OK. The most firm answers we have suggest that, as with lots viruses, there is a robust immunity generated post infection. And the studies so far indicate a robust immunity from the vaccines (with some questions around the Chinese one). So actions can and should be taken with the most up to date info and risk calculations we have available. |
|
thor
Legend
Posts: 20,480
|
Post by thor on Jul 15, 2021 20:42:50 GMT
Methinks you need to reread the OP with an eye towards the dour embouchure..
"Stupid" people come in all flavors.. Gay/Straight, Black/White, Republican/Democrat .. An analogy to rejecting the vaccine better than AIDS might be someone declining a life jacket from the deck of a sinking ship in order to "stick it to" Big Floatie . .
That’s a terrible analogy, since the gigantic majority of people who contract Covid recover. And we know the populations most at risk. Perhaps falling off a pool-float in a pool and rejecting a life jacket would make your analogy better. Most people would reject it. I would. But a small percent would accept it if they can’t swim to the side. By all means, take the vaccine. I’m all for it. Or even if you’re a sketchy swimmer, take the floaty. Better safe then sorry. If you’re Michael Phelps or indeed already have a life jacket on (recovery from previous infection), reject the life jacket if you wish. Fobbit, 1940: 'The gigantic majority of people in London are not harmed by the Luftwaffe. I'll just leave my lights on and make their safety decisions for them.' 'bECaUsE frEeDum!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111111111111eleventyone' |
|
|
|
Post by rabbitreborn on Jul 15, 2021 21:11:44 GMT
That’s a terrible analogy, since the gigantic majority of people who contract Covid recover. And we know the populations most at risk. Perhaps falling off a pool-float in a pool and rejecting a life jacket would make your analogy better. Most people would reject it. I would. But a small percent would accept it if they can’t swim to the side. By all means, take the vaccine. I’m all for it. Or even if you’re a sketchy swimmer, take the floaty. Better safe then sorry. If you’re Michael Phelps or indeed already have a life jacket on (recovery from previous infection), reject the life jacket if you wish. Fobbit, 1940: 'The gigantic majority of people in London are not harmed by the Luftwaffe. I'll just leave my lights on and make their safety decisions for them.' 'bECaUsE frEeDum!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111111111111eleventyone' Perfect analogy. Cant be argued against. Kudos. BTW, using your analogy, a bomb hit my house and my whole family was fine and we spread it to nobody. But still, the Luftwaffe thing is remarkably accurate. |
|
Odysseus
Legend
Trump = Disaster
Posts: 41,114
|
Post by Odysseus on Jul 15, 2021 21:16:02 GMT
The length of the immunity is more certain for natural infection than for vaccines. This is because, like I said, natural infection has been around much longer. I don't get how someone can argue "well, you don't know how long natural immunity lasts", while simultaneously arguing that this is why you should get a vaccine, that has the exact same unknown, but to a greater degree. The latest study I saw for natural infection (which was admittedly a month or more ago) said at least 9 months, but because people were still showing high levels of immunity at 9 months (which was the longest term data they had) the expectation is it doesn't just plummet to nothing suddenly. Well, I have never seen evidence that natural immunity or vaccines differ on any of the known variants to the extent that someone wouldn't be protected from either one. For me it's largely academic; I'm double-jabbed and will be on the list for whatever boosters come along due to being IDDM and deemed "at risk". As production ramps up I'm not sure what the ethics of taking another shot = depriving someone else may be; possibly it'll be like the kid who, when told "eat up your dinner there are starving kids in Africa" replies "well wrap it up and send it there then". Is the limit factor on 3rd World vaccination going to be production, in say 6 or 8 months time? I don't know. Certainly for most people there's a very, very low risk indeed from vaccination and a greater risk from C19. For young healthy people it's effectively negligible for both (although the "long covid" story is beginning to sound a little more than a footnote and worth watching). The questions over length and quality of protection seem not yet to have firm answers. Very interesting ptogramme on BBC radio today on it. I like it when people are allowed to say "we don't know" on broadcast media.
Oh, but Flabbitch and Smellis know, because THEY both have had Covid and they be feeling just fine.
So screw everyone else, they sez.
|
|
thor
Legend
Posts: 20,480
|
Post by thor on Jul 15, 2021 21:17:20 GMT
Fobbit, 1940: 'The gigantic majority of people in London are not harmed by the Luftwaffe. I'll just leave my lights on and make their safety decisions for them.' 'bECaUsE frEeDum!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111111111111eleventyone' Perfect analogy. Cant be argued against. Kudos. BTW, using your analogy, a bomb hit my house and my whole family was fine and we spread it to nobody. But still, the Luftwaffe thing is remarkably accurate. So much fail. The bomb hitting your house (only) doesn't effect others. Quiet yourself, Pyle. |
|
|
|
Post by rabbitreborn on Jul 15, 2021 21:23:05 GMT
Perfect analogy. Cant be argued against. Kudos. BTW, using your analogy, a bomb hit my house and my whole family was fine and we spread it to nobody. But still, the Luftwaffe thing is remarkably accurate. So much fail. The bomb hitting your house (only) doesn't effect others. Quiet yourself, Pyle. You’re too dumb to follow along. Just stick to Star Trek stuff, hero. |
|
|
|
Post by limey² on Jul 15, 2021 21:30:10 GMT
That’s a terrible analogy, since the gigantic majority of people who contract Covid recover. And we know the populations most at risk. Perhaps falling off a pool-float in a pool and rejecting a life jacket would make your analogy better. Most people would reject it. I would. But a small percent would accept it if they can’t swim to the side. By all means, take the vaccine. I’m all for it. Or even if you’re a sketchy swimmer, take the floaty. Better safe then sorry. If you’re Michael Phelps or indeed already have a life jacket on (recovery from previous infection), reject the life jacket if you wish. Fobbit, 1940: 'The gigantic majority of people in London are not harmed by the Luftwaffe. I'll just leave my lights on and make their safety decisions for them.' 'bECaUsE frEeDum!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111111111111eleventyone' Apparently several hundred contrary halfwits over winter 1940-41 in London actually refused to do what Da Gubmint said re lights out at night. |
|
Odysseus
Legend
Trump = Disaster
Posts: 41,114
|
Post by Odysseus on Jul 16, 2021 0:52:38 GMT
Fobbit, 1940: 'The gigantic majority of people in London are not harmed by the Luftwaffe. I'll just leave my lights on and make their safety decisions for them.' 'bECaUsE frEeDum!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111111111111eleventyone' Apparently several hundred contrary halfwits over winter 1940-41 in London actually refused to do what Da Gubmint said re lights out at night.
Not according to self-appointed history expert Flabbitch.
|
|
|
|
Post by limey² on Jul 16, 2021 3:02:42 GMT
Apparently several hundred contrary halfwits over winter 1940-41 in London actually refused to do what Da Gubmint said re lights out at night.
Not according to self-appointed history expert Flabbitch.
A few feeble house lights arguably made little difference. A typical Luftwaffe night bomber, 1940, was comparable to a Volkswagen Beetle in crew visibility, comfort, and defence. These misguided young Germans were working on radio navigation aids rather than visual bombing. Had the London districts been lit up, targeting would've been easy. As it was they used radio navigation systems and limited visual bombing. Defences were rudimentary. |
|
Odysseus
Legend
Trump = Disaster
Posts: 41,114
|
Post by Odysseus on Jul 16, 2021 3:35:07 GMT
Not according to self-appointed history expert Flabbitch.
A few feeble house lights arguably made little difference. A typical Luftwaffe night bomber, 1940, was comparable to a Volkswagen Beetle in crew visibility, comfort, and defence. These misguided young Germans were working on radio navigation aids rather than visual bombing. Had the London districts been lit up, targeting would've been easy. As it was they used radio navigation systems and limited visual bombing. Defences were rudimentary.
Didn't you Brits figure out how to jam their radio navigation?
It's been a while since I watched World At War... with that great narration by Whatshisname.
|
|
Odysseus
Legend
Trump = Disaster
Posts: 41,114
|
Post by Odysseus on Jul 16, 2021 3:37:48 GMT
(Whatshisname = Laurence Olivier)
|
|
|
|
Post by limey² on Jul 16, 2021 12:01:15 GMT
A few feeble house lights arguably made little difference. A typical Luftwaffe night bomber, 1940, was comparable to a Volkswagen Beetle in crew visibility, comfort, and defence. These misguided young Germans were working on radio navigation aids rather than visual bombing. Had the London districts been lit up, targeting would've been easy. As it was they used radio navigation systems and limited visual bombing. Defences were rudimentary.
Didn't you Brits figure out how to jam their radio navigation?
It's been a while since I watched World At War... with that great narration by Whatshisname.
The Battle of the Beams. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Beams |
|
Odysseus
Legend
Trump = Disaster
Posts: 41,114
|
Post by Odysseus on Jul 16, 2021 16:44:46 GMT
Didn't you Brits figure out how to jam their radio navigation?
It's been a while since I watched World At War... with that great narration by Whatshisname.
The Battle of the Beams. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Beams
Ahhh. Thanks so much.
Never heard it described as "The Battle of the Beams" before.
Good work!
|
|
|
|
Post by Fiddler on Jul 17, 2021 18:54:11 GMT
Doesn't it seem evolutionary appropriate .. even beneficial.. to allow these genes to exit the pool ...
Don't treat'um.. Good riddance to stupid genes ..
It's sort'a like nitwits that climb mountains, get into trouble and look to someone else to save them..
I say leave them on the mountainside .. The next climber that comes by seeing a skeleton dangling from a rope might think twice.. . .
I will remove my tongue from my cheek at this point ...
Agreed. And what dummy doesn’t know that eating too much garbage and not being active enough will lead to type 2 diabetes? Cut the insulin. “We” shouldn’t even treat them anymore. Also, who doesn’t know that unprotected gay sex could easily lead to AIDS? “We” shouldn’t treat those dummies either. Evolution.
It occurred to me that your analogies fail in that neither diabetes nor AIDS has a vaccine proven effective against them whereas this Coronavirus does.
There's no vaccine one can take that would prevent ones "eating too much garbage" and developing diabetes nor one that allows you to bugger your buddy's butt and bounce unAIDed ..
However there is a vaccine one can take that prevents death from COVID ..
Therefore not taking the vaccine if vulnerable and dying from that decision is stupid but ultimately benefits the gene pool. Q.E.D.
|
|
Odysseus
Legend
Trump = Disaster
Posts: 41,114
|
Post by Odysseus on Jul 17, 2021 19:02:42 GMT
Agreed. And what dummy doesn’t know that eating too much garbage and not being active enough will lead to type 2 diabetes? Cut the insulin. “We” shouldn’t even treat them anymore. Also, who doesn’t know that unprotected gay sex could easily lead to AIDS? “We” shouldn’t treat those dummies either. Evolution.
It occurred to me that your analogies fail in that neither diabetes nor AIDS has a vaccine proven effective against them whereas this Coronavirus does.
There's no vaccine one can take that would prevent ones "eating too much garbage" and developing diabetes nor one that allows you to bugger your buddy's butt and bounce unAIDed ..
However there is a vaccine one can take that prevents death from COVID ..
Therefore not taking the vaccine if vulnerable and dying from that decision is stupid but ultimately benefits the gene pool. Q.E.D.
Agreed, but as I keep trying to point out, failure by the a-vaxxers to get covid vaccinated turns them into variant factories which endanger the lives of others.
In other words, it's not always just about Flabbitch.
|
|
|
|
Post by rabbitreborn on Jul 17, 2021 19:15:20 GMT
Agreed. And what dummy doesn’t know that eating too much garbage and not being active enough will lead to type 2 diabetes? Cut the insulin. “We” shouldn’t even treat them anymore. Also, who doesn’t know that unprotected gay sex could easily lead to AIDS? “We” shouldn’t treat those dummies either. Evolution.
It occurred to me that your analogies fail in that neither diabetes nor AIDS has a vaccine proven effective against them whereas this Coronavirus does. Yet there are known behaviors. And I’m talking about behaviors people could take to avoid requiring medical care. So “getting a vaccine” is just another protective behavior. |
|
|
|
Post by rabbitreborn on Jul 17, 2021 19:28:17 GMT
It occurred to me that your analogies fail in that neither diabetes nor AIDS has a vaccine proven effective against them whereas this Coronavirus does.
There's no vaccine one can take that would prevent ones "eating too much garbage" and developing diabetes nor one that allows you to bugger your buddy's butt and bounce unAIDed ..
However there is a vaccine one can take that prevents death from COVID ..
Therefore not taking the vaccine if vulnerable and dying from that decision is stupid but ultimately benefits the gene pool. Q.E.D.
Agreed, but as I keep trying to point out, failure by the a-vaxxers to get covid vaccinated turns them into variant factories which endanger the lives of others.
In other words, it's not always just about Flabbitch.
But to Fiddler’s point (and mine now), it only endangers people who also have not been vaccinated and are very unhealthy. So it benefits the gene pool. Just like people who can’t help but be morbidly obese should just be refused medical care so they don’t pass on their horrible dietary behaviors to any progeny. Fiddler and I are of one on this issue. Don’t try to pry us apart. |
|
petep
Legend
Posts: 26,009
|
Post by petep on Jul 17, 2021 22:41:23 GMT
The radical emotional left loves calling people names - racist, Nazi etc.
The latest is anti vaxxer.
Is anyone here who has not had the shot an anti vaxxer.
I have not had the shot because I had covid. But I’ve had many other vaccines over the years.
|
|
