Religion and Charles Darwin's 'abominable mystery'

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Thread started Jan 23, 2021 at 7:14am
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Post by Ulysses on Jan 23, 2021 at 7:14am
New light shed on Charles Darwin's 'abominable mystery'

Indeed!

Darwin coined the phrase, abominable mystery, in 1879. In a letter to his closest friend, botanist and explorer Dr Joseph Hooker, he wrote: "The rapid development as far as we can judge of all the higher plants within recent geological times is an abominable mystery."

The mystery centres on the rise of the flowering plants, or angiosperms, the family of plants that produce flowers and bear their seeds in fruits. They make up the vast majority of all known living plants, from oaks to wildflowers and water lilies.

Flowering plants appeared on Earth relatively recently on a geological timescale, then swiftly diversified in an explosion of colour, shape and form. "In the fossil record they appear very suddenly in the Cretaceous, dated at about 100 million years ago, and there's nothing that looks like an angiosperm before them and then they suddenly appear and in considerable diversity," says Prof Buggs.

Questions raised by the sudden appearance of flowering plants are at the heart of Darwin's abominable mystery, he explains. "Why isn't there a gradual evolution of the angiosperms? Why can't we see intermediate forms between the gymnosperms - things like conifers - and the flowering plants? And why, when they appear, are they already so diverse?"

I cannot say I've given it any thought until now.




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Reply #1 posted Jan 23, 2021 at 2:46pm
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Post by Mercy for All on Jan 23, 2021 at 2:46pm
It might be because "very suddenly" is still a pretty good length of time, geologically speaking?

Also I think we underestimate the speed at which speciation happens.
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Reply #2 posted Jan 23, 2021 at 6:53pm
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Post by Ulysses on Jan 23, 2021 at 6:53pm
Well, I don't know if it makes any difference, but most plants are immobile.

And I think Darwin and more modern scientists would know how long it took for flowering plants to evolve, and how much longer most speciation takes, from the fossil record.

Or could it just be that Mother Nature loves a fragrant bouquet ... ?


"The more Americans the government considers terrorists the better." - Rabbitch Reborn

"Butler made the Negro a contraband, Lincoln made him a freeman, and Grant made him a citizen... in him the Negro found a protector, the Indian a friend, the vanquished foe a brother, an imperiled nation a savior." - Frederick Douglass
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Reply #3 posted Jan 24, 2021 at 1:04pm
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Post by Mercy for All on Jan 24, 2021 at 1:04pm
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Jan 23, 2021 at 6:53pm Ulysses said:
Well, I don't know if it makes any difference, but most plants are immobile.

And I think Darwin and more modern scientists would know how long it took for flowering plants to evolve, and how much longer most speciation takes, from the fossil record.

Or could it just be that Mother Nature loves a fragrant bouquet ... ?
Just for argument's sake, how would Darwin know that? He didn't even know the mechanism of evolution, since DNA wasn't discovered until the 1960's.
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Reply #4 posted Jan 24, 2021 at 1:17pm
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Post by Ulysses on Jan 24, 2021 at 1:17pm
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Jan 24, 2021 at 1:04pm Mercy for All said:
Just for argument's sake, how would Darwin know that? He didn't even know the mechanism of evolution, since DNA wasn't discovered until the 1960's.

Does it take knowledge of DNA to understand that living things generally evolve? I don't think so. The evidence is there without a chemical analysis.

DNA was first isolated back in 1869, although its role in genetics was not known at that time. Watson and Crick elucidated its double helix structure in 1953, using X-ray crystallography data provided by the unsung Roslind Franklin.


"The more Americans the government considers terrorists the better." - Rabbitch Reborn

"Butler made the Negro a contraband, Lincoln made him a freeman, and Grant made him a citizen... in him the Negro found a protector, the Indian a friend, the vanquished foe a brother, an imperiled nation a savior." - Frederick Douglass
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Reply #6 posted Jan 25, 2021 at 10:51am
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Post by Mercy for All on Jan 25, 2021 at 10:51am
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Jan 24, 2021 at 1:17pm Ulysses said:

Does it take knowledge of DNA to understand that living things generally evolve? I don't think so. The evidence is there without a chemical analysis.

DNA was first isolated back in 1869, although its role in genetics was not known at that time. Watson and Crick elucidated its double helix structure in 1953, using X-ray crystallography data provided by the unsung Roslind Franklin.
Irrelevant.

I was responding to your claim that Darwin would know how long it would take. How would he know that?
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Reply #7 posted Jan 25, 2021 at 10:52am
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Post by Mercy for All on Jan 25, 2021 at 10:52am
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Jan 25, 2021 at 7:48am davejavu said:
Since the discovery of DNA it has been established that the rate of mutation is practically constant, so much so that they can estimate how long two species have been differentiated just by how much difference there is in their respective DNA. Rapid evolution is caused by a drastic selection of the species. We in that respect are much much faster than nature. Look how different a chihuahua and a St Bernard are, yet 15, 000 measly years ago, the dog didn't even exist. Evolutionwise 15, 000 years is nothing!! It's all our doing.

Nature is slow because there's no driver behind the wheel...
I don't believe mutation to be the only factor in evolution or change in DNA. But yes, 15,000 years is "nothing," geologically speaking. Which begs the question, how long is a "sudden appearance," geologically speaking?
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Reply #10 posted Jan 25, 2021 at 4:24pm
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Post by Mercy for All on Jan 25, 2021 at 4:24pm
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Jan 25, 2021 at 11:01am davejavu said:
I never said that!!! Besides I made it quite obvious that I didn't believe so, the wolf has been transformed into dogs but the mutation over such a small period of time was minimal, practically negligible.

I don't get why you keep reading in my articles things that I never put there.

Why is it in your opinion?

This is a serious question and I await an answer. Don't dodge.
Well, I never actually said that you said it. I didn't say, "In contradiction to what you said, I don't believe mutation to be the only factor in evolution or change in DNA." You only mentioned the rate of mutation; that's why I responded with that. It actually is possible to have a conversation without every response being a contradiction of what the other person said.

Evolution is also accelerated by sexual selection and by epigenetics.
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Reply #11 posted Jan 25, 2021 at 8:48pm
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Post by Ulysses on Jan 25, 2021 at 8:48pm
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Jan 25, 2021 at 10:51am Mercy for All said:
Irrelevant.

I was responding to your claim that Darwin would know how long it would take. How would he know that?

You are misinterpreting.

I said Darwin would know how long it took for flowering plants to evolve FROM THE FOSSIL RECORD.

Do you know what a fossil is?



"The more Americans the government considers terrorists the better." - Rabbitch Reborn

"Butler made the Negro a contraband, Lincoln made him a freeman, and Grant made him a citizen... in him the Negro found a protector, the Indian a friend, the vanquished foe a brother, an imperiled nation a savior." - Frederick Douglass
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Reply #12 posted Jan 26, 2021 at 11:02am
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Post by Mercy for All on Jan 26, 2021 at 11:02am
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Jan 25, 2021 at 8:48pm Ulysses said:

You are misinterpreting.

I said Darwin would know how long it took for flowering plants to evolve FROM THE FOSSIL RECORD.

Do you know what a fossil is?

Oh, I see what you're saying. Snarkiness is unnecessary.

But apparently not. Because he is quoted as saying: "...why, when they appear, are they already so diverse?"

A geological fossil record might not adequately reveal a relatively quick transformation.
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Reply #13 posted Jan 26, 2021 at 1:21pm
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Post by Ulysses on Jan 26, 2021 at 1:21pm
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Jan 26, 2021 at 11:02am Mercy for All said:
Oh, I see what you're saying. Snarkiness is unnecessary.

But apparently not. Because he is quoted as saying: "...why, when they appear, are they already so diverse?"

A geological fossil record might not adequately reveal a relatively quick transformation.

Duh.

And that is what is being said: the transformation of gymnospores into flowering plants is TOO QUICK, and unexplained.

It's not enough to say it's "relatively quick". It is unexplained.




"The more Americans the government considers terrorists the better." - Rabbitch Reborn

"Butler made the Negro a contraband, Lincoln made him a freeman, and Grant made him a citizen... in him the Negro found a protector, the Indian a friend, the vanquished foe a brother, an imperiled nation a savior." - Frederick Douglass
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Reply #14 posted Jan 27, 2021 at 8:51am
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Post by Mercy for All on Jan 27, 2021 at 8:51am
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Jan 26, 2021 at 1:21pm Ulysses said:

Duh.

And that is what is being said: the transformation of gymnospores into flowering plants is TOO QUICK, and unexplained.

It's not enough to say it's "relatively quick". It is unexplained.

Maybe.

I think it might too quick to be explained by mutation being the only mechanism for evolution.

How would we know? How long did it take? What's the number?

How long should it have taken? What's the number?

I'm betting Darwin would not have had any solid idea as to what those numbers would have been. How would he?

*EDIT: Congratulations on reaching a nice pristine total of 10,000 posts. If you respond to this you will sully that number.
Last Edit: Jan 27, 2021 at 8:54am by Mercy for All
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Reply #15 posted Jan 27, 2021 at 8:54am
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Post by Ulysses on Jan 27, 2021 at 8:54am
No doubt Mercy for all is a genius when it comes to evolution.


"The more Americans the government considers terrorists the better." - Rabbitch Reborn

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Reply #19 posted Jan 27, 2021 at 1:09pm
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Post by Mercy for All on Jan 27, 2021 at 1:09pm
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Jan 27, 2021 at 8:54am Ulysses said:
No doubt Mercy for all is a genius when it comes to evolution.
Well, now, look what you did! Now you have 10,007 posts...

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Reply #21 posted Jan 27, 2021 at 4:37pm
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Post by Ulysses on Jan 27, 2021 at 4:37pm
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Jan 27, 2021 at 1:09pm Mercy for All said:
Well, now, look what you did! Now you have 10,007 posts...

It's so nice that you are paying attention to somebody else's post count.

Does that excite you?

Should I be charging you for the experience?

Nah, I don't give a shit.



"The more Americans the government considers terrorists the better." - Rabbitch Reborn

"Butler made the Negro a contraband, Lincoln made him a freeman, and Grant made him a citizen... in him the Negro found a protector, the Indian a friend, the vanquished foe a brother, an imperiled nation a savior." - Frederick Douglass
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Reply #23 posted Jan 28, 2021 at 11:32am
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Post by Mercy for All on Jan 28, 2021 at 11:32am
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Jan 27, 2021 at 4:37pm Ulysses said:

It's so nice that you are paying attention to somebody else's post count.

Does that excite you?

Should I be charging you for the experience?

Nah, I don't give a shit.


You take this all pretty seriously, don't you?
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Reply #25 posted Jan 29, 2021 at 7:44am
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Post by Mercy for All on Jan 29, 2021 at 7:44am
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Jan 28, 2021 at 1:43pm davejavu said:
MFA, not that I am complaining, but I am curious. Why are you so vehemently defending the theory of natural selection? I mean, doesn't it undermine your idea of a supreme being calling the shots? In fact, it's kinda funny that useless would be on the side of magic and you on the one of reason. Although, I don't know him well, besides our little antagonism, I hardly ever read what he writes and I already know that Oompa loompa is deist or theist or whatever... So maybe it's not so surprising after all, still if there's one subject on which I didn't think he's be antagonizing you, it's this one.
How does natural selection undermine the idea of a supreme being calling the shots?

There are mechanisms by which it rains which don't require God to magically form droplets of water in the air and throw them down to the earth...
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Reply #27 posted Jan 29, 2021 at 11:56am
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Post by Mercy for All on Jan 29, 2021 at 11:56am
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Jan 29, 2021 at 8:55am davejavu said:
So god is kinda retired then?
No, that's deism.
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Reply #29 posted Jan 30, 2021 at 12:29am
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Post by .OombaBeau. on Jan 30, 2021 at 12:29am
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Jan 23, 2021 at 2:46pm Mercy for All said:
It might be because "very suddenly" is still a pretty good length of time, geologically speaking?

Also I think we underestimate the speed at which speciation happens.
We shouldn't fool ourselves into thinking we've uncovered
even the tiniest fraction of that which has lived here before.

What really was, would be incomprehensible.
What Darwin was describing was his ignorance.

Because he was a scientist.
"What the hell is going on? Is this going to become a different country, and the Americans will be the minority?"




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Reply #30 posted Jan 30, 2021 at 8:07am
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Post by Mercy for All on Jan 30, 2021 at 8:07am
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Jan 29, 2021 at 1:45pm davejavu said:
Part time?
Here's a crude analogy.

The matter of the universe is like the hardware of a computer. God is less concerned with the hardware than the software.
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Reply #32 posted Jan 30, 2021 at 2:04pm
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Post by Mercy for All on Jan 30, 2021 at 2:04pm
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Jan 30, 2021 at 9:13am davejavu said:
Not quite. The software doesn't have a life if its own, it needs the hardware to exists. You people think that the software can exist all by itself.


Not only is "you people" unhelpful (uhhh...always?), but no, I don't think what you what you are suggesting. Just as software requires a computer to run, so a human being requires matter to exist. I have no idea how you could understand my crude illustration to suggest the opposite. 🧐

I've seen someone lose their mind over a period of almost twenty years, one minuscule piece at a time, at one time you have a wholesome person in full possession of her mental capabilities, twenty years later there is almost nothing left of that person, not even her identity. She doesn't even know who she is anymore. But in between, twenty years of very slow decline and no way of telling at what point you've lost the person. This should show to even the most stubborn ones that the mind can't exist separately from the body. It should but it doesn't, because the most stubborn ones are not that way because of anything related to reason. They're frightened fools that will never know that it's safe outside, because they'll never even try.


And yet people with significant injuries to the brain have had other parts of the brain "take over" their function. How does that happen?
Last Edit: Jan 30, 2021 at 2:05pm by Mercy for All
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Reply #33 posted Jan 30, 2021 at 2:30pm
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Post by Ulysses on Jan 30, 2021 at 2:30pm
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Jan 30, 2021 at 8:07am Mercy for All said:
Here's a crude analogy.

The matter of the universe is like the hardware of a computer. God is less concerned with the hardware than the software.

This is supposed to be about Science and Technology. I believe there is a Religion section where your thoughts would be more appropriate.



"The more Americans the government considers terrorists the better." - Rabbitch Reborn

"Butler made the Negro a contraband, Lincoln made him a freeman, and Grant made him a citizen... in him the Negro found a protector, the Indian a friend, the vanquished foe a brother, an imperiled nation a savior." - Frederick Douglass
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Reply #34 posted Jan 30, 2021 at 7:04pm
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Post by Mercy for All on Jan 30, 2021 at 7:04pm
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Jan 30, 2021 at 2:30pm Ulysses said:

This is supposed to be about Science and Technology. I believe there is a Religion section where your thoughts would be more appropriate.

True. The tangent started in Reply #24 to which "my thoughts" were a response. I did not volunteer them unilaterally.

If the thread could be split and moved, that would be great, but I have no ability to make that happen.
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Reply #35 posted Jan 30, 2021 at 7:14pm
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Post by Ulysses on Jan 30, 2021 at 7:14pm
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Jan 30, 2021 at 7:04pm Mercy for All said:
True. The tangent started in Reply #24 to which "my thoughts" were a response. I did not volunteer them unilaterally.

If the thread could be split and moved, that would be great, but I have no ability to make that happen.

I just created a thread topic over on Religion, titled "Science vs. Religion".

It was easy.



"The more Americans the government considers terrorists the better." - Rabbitch Reborn

"Butler made the Negro a contraband, Lincoln made him a freeman, and Grant made him a citizen... in him the Negro found a protector, the Indian a friend, the vanquished foe a brother, an imperiled nation a savior." - Frederick Douglass
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Reply #37 posted Feb 1, 2021 at 7:53am
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Post by Mercy for All on Feb 1, 2021 at 7:53am
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Jan 30, 2021 at 7:14pm Ulysses said:

I just created a thread topic over on Religion, titled "Science vs. Religion".

It was easy.

Well, thanks. Did you copy over the existing questions and responses? Did you "split and move" the thread?
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Reply #38 posted Feb 1, 2021 at 7:55am
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Post by Mercy for All on Feb 1, 2021 at 7:55am
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Jan 30, 2021 at 11:45pm davejavu said:
Oh, so that would make you a Christian that doesn't believe in eternal life then... Odd!


Non sequitur. I said no such thing.

It's as if you had responded: Oh, so you're the only Christian that eats Kobe beef instead of cornish game hen...

And yet people with significant injuries to the brain have had other parts of the brain "take over" their function. How does that happen?
Completely irrelevant. Where did I say anything to suggest otherwise?

It's as if you had responded: Still, you can't deny that Kobe beef is more fattening than cornish game hen...

Seriously?


You are introducing the mind/body problem aren't you? What is the person--the mind or the brain?

Surely you see the relevance? Or am I jumping ahead too quickly?
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Reply #40 posted Feb 1, 2021 at 8:50am
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Post by Mercy for All on Feb 1, 2021 at 8:50am
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Feb 1, 2021 at 8:44am davejavu said:

What you seem to say (I say "seem" because evidently with you, one never knows) is that the mind can't exist without the body but in your very next statement you seem to say that the mind can exist without the body... in eternal life...

IOW, make up your fucking mind!!!


I mean surely you can see how your gibberish could be (for a normal person that is) a little... CONFUSING!!!!

Can the swearing. Stop being such a jerk.

Because you don't understand my position, you presume you know what it is. The idea of a "disembodied soul" is not a biblical thought--it's a medieval distortion of the Christian message because of the Platonization of Christianity. Stop revealing your ignorance with your rudeness.
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Reply #43 posted Feb 1, 2021 at 9:32am
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Post by Ulysses on Feb 1, 2021 at 9:32am
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Feb 1, 2021 at 7:53am Mercy for All said:
Well, thanks. Did you copy over the existing questions and responses? Did you "split and move" the thread?

Why don't you take a look?



"The more Americans the government considers terrorists the better." - Rabbitch Reborn

"Butler made the Negro a contraband, Lincoln made him a freeman, and Grant made him a citizen... in him the Negro found a protector, the Indian a friend, the vanquished foe a brother, an imperiled nation a savior." - Frederick Douglass
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Reply #44 posted 4 hours ago
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Feb 1, 2021 at 9:22am davejavu said:

I'll stop being a jerk when you'll stop playing me for a fool, IOW, being another kind of a jerk.



So far you seem very skilled at saying what your position, ISN'T but you fail miserably when it comes to saying what your position IS.


Sooner or later (and rather sooner than later) that kind of attitude becomes annoying.

I've made my position clear. Human beings don't exist as such without a material body. You assumed that having a material body denies the possibility of "eternal life" and responded quite rudely based on your ignorant assumption. Having a material body and "living eternally" are not mutually opposed positions. That's my position.

Most of the problem is you have a very narrow idea of "what Christianity is," I would assume based on a pretty traditional medievally-based version of it. Maybe that's all you have been exposed to.
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Reply #45 posted 4 hours ago
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Feb 1, 2021 at 9:32am Ulysses said:

Why don't you take a look?

I already had.

The answer to both of those questions was "no."
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Reply #47 posted 8 minutes ago
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4 hours ago Mercy for All said:
I already had.

The answer to both of those questions was "no."

So why don't you post your religious thoughts regarding Darwin's dilemma in the thread I created for you in the Religions section?

Or do I need to cut and paste the thread here for you?

Cut and paste of thread from Science forum to Religions forum, so religious aspects can be more appropriately raised.

Is it a problem?