Odysseus
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Post by Odysseus on Nov 22, 2020 16:03:29 GMT
I'll start this off with my current reading:
"Grant", by Ron Chernow
An epic biography, spanning more than 1,000 pages (including indexes and notes).
My opinion: I'm about 1/3 through it now. It's very well written. I've learned some fascinating things about Grant. Such as that although he had a weakness for alcohol, he had long periods where he abstained, especially when he was actively engaged in war matters. He also was an early champion of emancipation, as well as incorporating newly freed Southern blacks into his army's ranks. He had a high opinion of their fighting ability. And later he helped the Reconstruction program give blacks the full rights of citizenship. Grant also was a superb general whose laser like focus on winning battles did much to help the Union recover from earlier inept commands.
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Odysseus
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Trump = Disaster
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Post by Odysseus on Nov 22, 2020 18:33:17 GMT
Another interesting aspect of Grant, is, that while he was the most successful Union general in subduing the South, he always insisted that his troops and armies not maltreat the population not in open rebellion nor engaging in insurgency in Union occupied areas.
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Odysseus
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Post by Odysseus on Nov 22, 2020 22:34:45 GMT
I'm at the point in the book where it describes events just after Grant's successful Vicksburg campaign. If the book has a negative, it's that it doesn't include any maps of any of the campaigns he managed, including nothing showing his Vicksburg strategy. But I suppose there are good sources for that information, and the book is already quite hefty (>1,000 pg).
Grant was an interesting character. A shrewdly efficient and successful military commander. But he seems to have let down his defenses when dealing with people outside of a military campaign. Thus, as is well known, he was routinely cheated and taken unfair advantage of by some of his human connections. He was too trusting of people. His low key and self-effacing demeanor helped make him very popular with his troops. But it may also have attracted con men who saw in him an easy mark.
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Odysseus
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Trump = Disaster
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Post by Odysseus on Nov 23, 2020 5:35:52 GMT
General David Petraeus interviews Grant bio author Ron Chernow:
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Odysseus
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Post by Odysseus on Nov 23, 2020 6:07:54 GMT
Map of the Vicksburg campaign:
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Odysseus
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Post by Odysseus on Dec 11, 2020 4:01:11 GMT
About half-way through the Grant bio now. I have started to supplement it by re-watching Ken Burn's Civil War series.
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Post by william on Dec 11, 2020 12:57:38 GMT
I love books that take forever. I usually keep 4 or 5 going at any time which helps to lengthen my time with the great ones. When you finish Grant, try en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historia_verdadera_de_la_conquista_de_la_Nueva_Espa%C3%B1aThe True History of the Conquest of New Spain) is a first-person narrative written in 1576 by military adventurer, conquistador, and colonist settler Bernal Díaz del Castillo (1492–1581), who served in three Mexican expeditions; those of Francisco Hernández de Córdoba (1517) to the Yucatán peninsula; the expedition of Juan de Grijalva (1518), and the expedition of Hernán Cortés (1519) in the Valley of Mexico; the history relates his participation in the fall of Emperor Moctezuma II, and the subsequent defeat of the Aztec Empire. It's not the most literary if histories, but Bernal didn't have Twain to turn to for advice.
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Odysseus
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Trump = Disaster
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Post by Odysseus on Dec 11, 2020 17:02:40 GMT
That looks like a good one, Billy. However I've also started on another bio, this one of Thomas Jefferson. Still in the foreword, though.
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Post by william on Dec 11, 2020 22:25:10 GMT
That looks like a good one, Billy. However I've also started on another bio, this one of Thomas Jefferson. Still in the foreword, though. American history is much more personal and useful. I recommend Madison. I wish I could recommend the first book I read about him, but sadly it was lost in the fire. Cortez and his merry men were fucking insane. I've read a lot of American frontier history, this is something wholly different. The writing style is lacking, but it's a 1st hand account of a couple hundred Spaniards with a few horses walking across Mexico into Gibson's Apocalypto.
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Odysseus
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Trump = Disaster
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Post by Odysseus on Dec 11, 2020 22:32:27 GMT
Well, halfway through Grant, as mentioned. The Civil War has ended, Lincoln has been shot, and while Andrew Johnson hasn't yet made Trump look good, and who could, it's sort of depressing already.
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Post by william on Dec 12, 2020 6:18:35 GMT
Well, halfway through Grant, as mentioned. The Civil War has ended, Lincoln has been shot, and while Andrew Johnson hasn't yet made Trump look good, and who could, it's sort of depressing already. I believe that it's mostly politics, corruption from now on, but then most of my Grant knowledge comes from a biography that I read in the 5th grade. If Twain liked him, he must have been well worth knowing.
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Odysseus
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Post by Odysseus on Dec 12, 2020 6:20:40 GMT
Well, halfway through Grant, as mentioned. The Civil War has ended, Lincoln has been shot, and while Andrew Johnson hasn't yet made Trump look good, and who could, it's sort of depressing already. I believe that it's mostly politics, corruption from now on, but then most of my Grant knowledge comes from a biography that I read in the 5th grade. If Twain liked him, he must have been well worth knowing.
Grant was a great general and if he had a flaw it was that he was too trusting.
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Odysseus
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Post by Odysseus on Dec 20, 2020 20:01:49 GMT
Got to the point where the war is over, Lincoln assassinated, Johnson acted like a total dickhead, Grant won the election, and his military background didn't fully prepare him for political office.
Example: he didn't want to compromise his cabinet appointments so he didn't run his selections by anybody in DC with knowledge of the issues. One consequence is that he appointed one cabinet member (Treasury) who had a personal finance conflict that could not be resolved and he had to withdraw even after Congress voted to approve the appointment. Stuff like that. I understand there were more mistakes stemming from Grant's lack of political experience. As we saw with Eisenhower, military experience is not necessarily enough preparation for high public office.
Grant was also somewhat overly impressed with characters that had succeeded in the business world, which is attributed to his own business failures before he became a successful war general.
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Odysseus
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Post by Odysseus on Dec 27, 2020 1:55:18 GMT
Grant had more consistent success and admiration as a general than as a president. Nonetheless, Chernow sets out to at least partially rehabilitate Grant's political reputation. In particular he points out how Grant was instrumental in ending the post civil war reign of terror imposed upon freed blacks and southern republicans by the rise of the murderous Ku Klux Klan:
Page 709, Grant, by Ron Chernow
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2020 15:22:10 GMT
Another interesting aspect of Grant, is, that while he was the most successful Union general in subduing the South, he always insisted that his troops and armies not maltreat the population not in open rebellion nor engaging in insurgency in Union occupied areas. Ulysses "Total War" Grant most certainly did authorize his armies to mistreat civilians. Grant authorized that animal Sherman to begin his terrorism against non combatants. By today's standards, both Grant and Sherman would have been tried in the Hague for war crimes and treated as the butchers that they were. Grant was cruelly incompetent but persistent (liberal traits), prone to using his troops as cannon fodder, especially during the 1864 campaign, culminating in the slaughter of so many at Cold Harbor.
Chernow is a propagandist, attempting to mend Grant's broken reputation. Best use for his book is one sheet at a time in the privy. Read an honest review here:
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Odysseus
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Post by Odysseus on Dec 29, 2020 15:54:02 GMT
And then we have Poopeocon's hero:
"African slavery, as it exists in the United States, is a moral, a social, and a political blessing." - Jefferson Davis
Yeah, nah, fuck that shit.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2020 20:13:51 GMT
And then we have Poopeocon's hero:"African slavery, as it exists in the United States, is a moral, a social, and a political blessing." - Jefferson Davis Yeah, nah, fuck that shit. As opposed to slave owner Grant? He was a failure, drunkard, butcher, war criminal, corrupt, killer of Indians.
An alcoholic general who carried out a brutal campaign of bloodletting to defeat the Confederacy became an incompetent president who led one of the most corrupt administrations in American history. That was the traditional assessment of Ulysses S. Grant throughout much of the twentieth century.
the recent restoration of Grant proves unpersuasive when one considers everything wrong with his presidency. Indeed, the term “Grantism” that came to be synonymous with incompetence and corruption still resonates. His record on race and civil rights, the scandals in his administration, his economic policies, and his diplomatic agenda in foreign affairs all demonstrate the extent to which Ulysses S. Grant was an awful failure as president.
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Odysseus
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Post by Odysseus on Dec 29, 2020 22:36:55 GMT
And then we have Poopeocon's hero:"African slavery, as it exists in the United States, is a moral, a social, and a political blessing." - Jefferson Davis Yeah, nah, fuck that shit. As opposed to slave owner Grant? He was a failure, drunkard, butcher, war criminal, corrupt, killer of Indians.
An alcoholic general who carried out a brutal campaign of bloodletting to defeat the Confederacy became an incompetent president who led one of the most corrupt administrations in American history. That was the traditional assessment of Ulysses S. Grant throughout much of the twentieth century.
the recent restoration of Grant proves unpersuasive when one considers everything wrong with his presidency. Indeed, the term “Grantism” that came to be synonymous with incompetence and corruption still resonates. His record on race and civil rights, the scandals in his administration, his economic policies, and his diplomatic agenda in foreign affairs all demonstrate the extent to which Ulysses S. Grant was an awful failure as president.
Nope.
But he did beat Robert E. Lee's ass.
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Odysseus
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Post by Odysseus on Dec 30, 2020 4:40:15 GMT
Page 728:
Vindication
It is sadly ironic that Grant's presidency became synonymous with corruption, since he himself was impeccably honest. Some found Grant truthful to a fault. "In the White House one day he was busy and a stranger called," a visitor remembered. "The man on duty, knowing that Grant was busy, said to he servant at the door, 'Tell the gentleman that the President is out.'" Grant, overhearing this, said, 'No, don't tell him that. Tell him I am engaged and must be excused. i never lie for myself and do not want anybody to lie for me.'"
What a shame our president for the past four years behaves so very differently when it comes to telling the truth.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2020 14:46:57 GMT
As opposed to slave owner Grant? He was a failure, drunkard, butcher, war criminal, corrupt, killer of Indians.
An alcoholic general who carried out a brutal campaign of bloodletting to defeat the Confederacy became an incompetent president who led one of the most corrupt administrations in American history. That was the traditional assessment of Ulysses S. Grant throughout much of the twentieth century.
the recent restoration of Grant proves unpersuasive when one considers everything wrong with his presidency. Indeed, the term “Grantism” that came to be synonymous with incompetence and corruption still resonates. His record on race and civil rights, the scandals in his administration, his economic policies, and his diplomatic agenda in foreign affairs all demonstrate the extent to which Ulysses S. Grant was an awful failure as president.
Nope. But he did beat Robert E. Lee's ass. Only a moron thinks that such a victory means Grant had any character or integrity. He had more men and supplies. Page 728:Vindication It is sadly ironic that Grant's presidency became synonymous with corruption, since he himself was impeccably honest. Some found Grant truthful to a fault. "In the White House one day he was busy and a stranger called," a visitor remembered. "The man on duty, knowing that Grant was busy, said to he servant at the door, 'Tell the gentleman that the President is out.'" Grant, overhearing this, said, 'No, don't tell him that. Tell him I am engaged and must be excused. i never lie for myself and do not want anybody to lie for me.'" What a shame our president for the past four years behaves so very differently when it comes to telling the truth. Grant's version of honesty: "Who me? No, no, the buck stops somewhere else! I'm not corrupt, just the people that work for me! See how honest I am?"
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