Paleocon
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Post by Paleocon on Nov 13, 2024 18:11:55 GMT
There are always "democratic mechanisms" in a Constitutional Republic, but no, not sufficient to call us a democracy. If you disagree, let's hear it. "Democracy, will soon degenerate into an anarchy, such an anarchy that every man will do what is right in his own eyes, and no man's life or property or reputation or liberty will be secure and every one of these will soon mold itself into a system of subordination of all the moral virtues, and intellectual abilities, all the powers of wealth, beauty, wit, and science, to the wanton pleasures, the capricious will, and the execrable cruelty of one or a very few." - John Adams "Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There is never a democracy that did not commit suicide." - John Adams "A simple democracy is the devil's own government." - Benjamin Rush "The evils we experience flow from the excess of democracy. The people do not want virtue, but are the dupes of pretended patriots." - Eldridge Gerry "It is one of the evils of democratical governments, that the people, not always seeing and frequently misled, must often feel before they can act right; but then evil of this nature seldom fail to work their own cure." - George Washington "Democracies have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention; have ever been found incompatible with personal security or the rights of property; and have in general been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths." - James Madison "If we incline too much to democracy, we shall soon shoot into a monarchy." - Alexander Hamilton We're a Constitutional Republic that uses democratic means to elect our government... You've heard of a Venn diagram? Picture two concepts, that overlap. We're a Constitutional Republic. We're also a democracy. Not sure why you'd want to ignore the democracy part, it's hard wired into the nation's Constitution...take solace in the fact that it actually works, you got your guy in the top spot! Democracy is as important and inseparably vital as fuel is in car. But it would be mind mindbogglingly stupid to say "it's a car, but it's also gas". |
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demos
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Post by demos on Nov 13, 2024 18:21:57 GMT
There are always "democratic mechanisms" in a Constitutional Republic, but no, not sufficient to call us a democracy. If you disagree, let's hear it.
"Democracy, will soon degenerate into an anarchy, such an anarchy that every man will do what is right in his own eyes, and no man's life or property or reputation or liberty will be secure and every one of these will soon mold itself into a system of subordination of all the moral virtues, and intellectual abilities, all the powers of wealth, beauty, wit, and science, to the wanton pleasures, the capricious will, and the execrable cruelty of one or a very few." - John Adams
"Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There is never a democracy that did not commit suicide." - John Adams
"A simple democracy is the devil's own government." - Benjamin Rush
"The evils we experience flow from the excess of democracy. The people do not want virtue, but are the dupes of pretended patriots." - Eldridge Gerry
"It is one of the evils of democratical governments, that the people, not always seeing and frequently misled, must often feel before they can act right; but then evil of this nature seldom fail to work their own cure." - George Washington
"Democracies have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention; have ever been found incompatible with personal security or the rights of property; and have in general been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths." - James Madison
"If we incline too much to democracy, we shall soon shoot into a monarchy." - Alexander Hamilton
The Founders views on democracy were a little more complex than you're trying to present here, as your own Rush quote shows: "simple democracy."
For example, here is Alexander Hamilton to Gouvernor Morris:
"When the deliberative or judicial powers are vested wholly or partly in the collective body of the people, you must expect error, confusion and instability. But a representative democracy, where the right of election is well secured and regulated & the exercise of the legislative, executive and judiciary authorities, is vested in select persons, chosen really and not nominally by the people, will in my opinion be most likely to be happy, regular and durable." ( Source)
Again Hamilton:
"Democracy in my sense, where the whole power of the government in the people I. Whether exercised by themselves, or 2. By their representatives chosen by them either mediately or immediately and legally accountable to them... Consequence, the proposed government a representative democracy." ( Source)
John Adams:
"in conformity to these Ideas Republics have been divided into three different Species, monarchical, Aristocratical and Democratical Republics." ( Source)
Thomas Jefferson:
"the introduction of this new principle of representative democracy has rendered useless almost every thing written before on the structure of government: and in a great measure relieves our regret if the political writings of Aristotle, or of any other antient, have been lost, or are unfaithfully rendered or explained to us. my most earnest wish is to see the republican element of popular controul pushed to the maximum of it’s practicable exercise. I shall then believe that our government may be pure & perpetual." ( Source)
A letter to Thomas Jefferson in 1806:
"While Europe is convulsed by the calamites of War and the blood of our fellow Creatures stains the Sword of Ambition and Tyranny, we repose in safety under the mild and efficient Government of a representative Democracy; and view, not without commisseration, but with comparative consolation, the difference between their situation and our own—Convinced that under a Government of equal Laws we Shall continue to be secure against foreign enemies and domestic Traitors." ( Source)
The Founders clearly distinguished between different types of democracy and several of them considered our government to be a representative democracy.
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demos
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Post by demos on Nov 13, 2024 18:22:58 GMT
Are there any democratic mechanisms within our Constitutional Replublic that would meet the criteria for our nation being considered a "democracy"? Yes.
See my post in reply to his quotes.
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queshank
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Post by queshank on Nov 13, 2024 18:24:36 GMT
It doesn't not surprise me a bit that Q and Paleo believe in jewish space lasers.
LOL
You're the only people who have ever brought up "jewish space lasers."
MSG didn't. But you falling for programming did. Isn't that weird?
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queshank
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Post by queshank on Nov 13, 2024 18:25:56 GMT
There are always "democratic mechanisms" in a Constitutional Republic, but no, not sufficient to call us a democracy. If you disagree, let's hear it.
"Democracy, will soon degenerate into an anarchy, such an anarchy that every man will do what is right in his own eyes, and no man's life or property or reputation or liberty will be secure and every one of these will soon mold itself into a system of subordination of all the moral virtues, and intellectual abilities, all the powers of wealth, beauty, wit, and science, to the wanton pleasures, the capricious will, and the execrable cruelty of one or a very few." - John Adams
"Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There is never a democracy that did not commit suicide." - John Adams
"A simple democracy is the devil's own government." - Benjamin Rush
"The evils we experience flow from the excess of democracy. The people do not want virtue, but are the dupes of pretended patriots." - Eldridge Gerry
"It is one of the evils of democratical governments, that the people, not always seeing and frequently misled, must often feel before they can act right; but then evil of this nature seldom fail to work their own cure." - George Washington
"Democracies have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention; have ever been found incompatible with personal security or the rights of property; and have in general been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths." - James Madison
"If we incline too much to democracy, we shall soon shoot into a monarchy." - Alexander Hamilton
The Founders views on democracy were a little more complex than you're trying to present here, as your own Rush quote shows: "simple democracy."
For example, here is Alexander Hamilton to Gouvernor Morris:
"When the deliberative or judicial powers are vested wholly or partly in the collective body of the people, you must expect error, confusion and instability. But a representative democracy, where the right of election is well secured and regulated & the exercise of the legislative, executive and judiciary authorities, is vested in select persons, chosen really and not nominally by the people, will in my opinion be most likely to be happy, regular and durable." ( Source)
Again Hamilton:
"Democracy in my sense, where the whole power of the government in the people I. Whether exercised by themselves, or 2. By their representatives chosen by them either mediately or immediately and legally accountable to them... Consequence, the proposed government a representative democracy." ( Source)
John Adams:
"in conformity to these Ideas Republics have been divided into three different Species, monarchical, Aristocratical and Democratical Republics." ( Source)
Thomas Jefferson:
"the introduction of this new principle of representative democracy has rendered useless almost every thing written before on the structure of government: and in a great measure relieves our regret if the political writings of Aristotle, or of any other antient, have been lost, or are unfaithfully rendered or explained to us. my most earnest wish is to see the republican element of popular controul pushed to the maximum of it’s practicable exercise. I shall then believe that our government may be pure & perpetual." ( Source)
A letter to Thomas Jefferson in 1806:
"While Europe is convulsed by the calamites of War and the blood of our fellow Creatures stains the Sword of Ambition and Tyranny, we repose in safety under the mild and efficient Government of a representative Democracy; and view, not without commisseration, but with comparative consolation, the difference between their situation and our own—Convinced that under a Government of equal Laws we Shall continue to be secure against foreign enemies and domestic Traitors." ( Source)
I have it on good authority that those quotes are actually attributable to Volodymyr Zelenskyy. The Ukrainian war obviously being exactly like our own war for independence.
Queshank
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Paleocon
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Post by Paleocon on Nov 13, 2024 18:34:06 GMT
Of course it is. We have democratic elements in our society, especially at the state and local levels, but at the federal level, we make no direct decisions on policies or laws, thus severing any direct democratic contact.
You're brainwashed to the point where you can't deviate from the propaganda even with word definitions, can you, Freon? How pathetic.
No, you just can't understand that WE ALL KNOW WE ARE A REPUBLIC. You say it to us, as if this is some magical information that only you know about, lol. But Democracy is happening all throughout our country. It's not one or the other, it's both, and that is why I said it is pointless explaining this to you. Freon There are democratic elements in our federal system, but not reflective of the whole. Democracy is like the fuel in a car....it's vital to the function, but one would be stupid to point to an automobile and say "that's a car but it's also gas!". |
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Paleocon
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Post by Paleocon on Nov 13, 2024 18:43:55 GMT
There are always "democratic mechanisms" in a Constitutional Republic, but no, not sufficient to call us a democracy. If you disagree, let's hear it.
"Democracy, will soon degenerate into an anarchy, such an anarchy that every man will do what is right in his own eyes, and no man's life or property or reputation or liberty will be secure and every one of these will soon mold itself into a system of subordination of all the moral virtues, and intellectual abilities, all the powers of wealth, beauty, wit, and science, to the wanton pleasures, the capricious will, and the execrable cruelty of one or a very few." - John Adams
"Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There is never a democracy that did not commit suicide." - John Adams
"A simple democracy is the devil's own government." - Benjamin Rush
"The evils we experience flow from the excess of democracy. The people do not want virtue, but are the dupes of pretended patriots." - Eldridge Gerry
"It is one of the evils of democratical governments, that the people, not always seeing and frequently misled, must often feel before they can act right; but then evil of this nature seldom fail to work their own cure." - George Washington
"Democracies have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention; have ever been found incompatible with personal security or the rights of property; and have in general been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths." - James Madison
"If we incline too much to democracy, we shall soon shoot into a monarchy." - Alexander Hamilton
The Founders views on democracy were a little more complex than you're trying to present here, as your own Rush quote shows: "simple democracy."
For example, here is Alexander Hamilton to Gouvernor Morris:
"When the deliberative or judicial powers are vested wholly or partly in the collective body of the people, you must expect error, confusion and instability. But a representative democracy, where the right of election is well secured and regulated & the exercise of the legislative, executive and judiciary authorities, is vested in select persons, chosen really and not nominally by the people, will in my opinion be most likely to be happy, regular and durable." ( Source)
Again Hamilton:
"Democracy in my sense, where the whole power of the government in the people I. Whether exercised by themselves, or 2. By their representatives chosen by them either mediately or immediately and legally accountable to them... Consequence, the proposed government a representative democracy." ( Source)
John Adams:
"in conformity to these Ideas Republics have been divided into three different Species, monarchical, Aristocratical and Democratical Republics." ( Source)
Thomas Jefferson:
"the introduction of this new principle of representative democracy has rendered useless almost every thing written before on the structure of government: and in a great measure relieves our regret if the political writings of Aristotle, or of any other antient, have been lost, or are unfaithfully rendered or explained to us. my most earnest wish is to see the republican element of popular controul pushed to the maximum of it’s practicable exercise. I shall then believe that our government may be pure & perpetual." ( Source)
A letter to Thomas Jefferson in 1806:
"While Europe is convulsed by the calamites of War and the blood of our fellow Creatures stains the Sword of Ambition and Tyranny, we repose in safety under the mild and efficient Government of a representative Democracy; and view, not without commisseration, but with comparative consolation, the difference between their situation and our own—Convinced that under a Government of equal Laws we Shall continue to be secure against foreign enemies and domestic Traitors." ( Source)
The Founders clearly distinguished between different types of democracy and several of them considered our government to be a representative democracy.
And yet, that description never appeared in our Declaration of Independence or our Constitution. Our representatives are tasked with voting in a democratic fashion on our behalf, so technically only the representatives are in a cocoon of democracy. But we are not. Democracy is a tool and part of the process, but it is not what we are. |
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demos
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Post by demos on Nov 13, 2024 18:59:10 GMT
And yet, that description never appeared in our Declaration of Independence or our Constitution. Our representatives are tasked with voting in a democratic fashion on our behalf, so technically only the representatives are in a cocoon of democracy. But we are not. Democracy is a tool and part of the process, but it is not what we are. And yet, people who wrote and worked on those documents (Thomas Jefferson and Alexander Hamilton respectively) considered it to be a representative democracy.
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queshank
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Post by queshank on Nov 13, 2024 19:06:57 GMT
And yet, that description never appeared in our Declaration of Independence or our Constitution. Our representatives are tasked with voting in a democratic fashion on our behalf, so technically only the representatives are in a cocoon of democracy. But we are not. Democracy is a tool and part of the process, but it is not what we are. And yet, the people who wrote and worked on those documents (Thomas Jefferson and Alexander Hamilton respectively) considered it to be a representative democracy.
Does that apply anywhere but the House tho? The federal Senate was chosen by state legislators up until 1913. The Founders clearly did not want democracy to play a role in the formation of the Senate. For the leftists who have been so programmed to avoid this ... here's Senate.gov to set you straight.
Voters have selected U.S. senators in the privacy of the voting booth since 1913. This system of “direct election” was not what the framers of the U.S. Constitution had in mind, however, when they met at the Constitutional Convention in 1787. Article I, section 3 of the U.S. Constitution, as written by the framers, provided for election of senators by state legislatures.
And the president is the same. The founders clearly did not want the popular vote to decide the Senate.
Since the federal government was deemed "the government of the states" ... it was the states that chose their representatives, not the People. The House was The People's House because it was literally the only federal building the People had any say in.
Queshank
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demos
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Post by demos on Nov 13, 2024 19:22:52 GMT
Does that apply anywhere but the House tho? The federal Senate was chosen by state legislators up until 1913. The Founders clearly did not want democracy to play a role in the formation of the Senate. For the leftists who have been so programmed to avoid this ... here's Senate.gov to set you straight.
Voters have selected U.S. senators in the privacy of the voting booth since 1913. This system of “direct election” was not what the framers of the U.S. Constitution had in mind, however, when they met at the Constitutional Convention in 1787. Article I, section 3 of the U.S. Constitution, as written by the framers, provided for election of senators by state legislatures.
And the president is the same. The founders clearly did not want the popular vote to decide the Senate.
Since the federal government was deemed "the government of the states" ... it was the states that chose their representatives, not the People. The House was The People's House because it was literally the only federal building the People had any say in.
Queshank
Essentially it's about how sovereignty and power were ultimately derived from the people. If you read through the debates over the Constitution, you'll find citations of, and references/allusions to, Montesquieu, who wrote:
"WHEN the body of the people is possessed of the supreme power, this is called a democracy. When the supreme power is lodged in the hands of a part of the people, it is then an aristocracy. In a democracy the people are in some respects the sovereign, and in others the subject." ( The Spirit of the Laws)
This is reflected in Dr. Charles Jarvis' statement at the Massachusetts convention: "He considered the Constitution as an elective democracy, in which the sovereignty still rested in the people." ( Source)
Here's John Marshall in the state convention debate, speaking of the Constitution as a whole, not just the House:
"Mr. Chairman, I conceive that the object of the discussion now before us is, whether democracy or despotism be most eligible. I am sure that those who framed the system submitted to our investigation, and those who now support it, intend the establishment and security of the former. The supporters of the Constitution claim the title of being firm friends of the liberty and the rights of mankind. They say that they consider it as the best means of protecting liberty. We, sir, idolize democracy. Those who oppose it have bestowed eulogiums on monarchy. We prefer this system to any monarchy, because we are convinced that it has a greater tendency to secure our liberty and promote our happiness. We admire it, because we think it a well-regulated democracy. It is recommended to the good people of this country: they are, through us, to declare whether it be such a plan of government as will establish and secure their freedom." ( Source)
[Montesquieu also wrote about well-regulated democracies].
Also, not exactly true that the Founders (as a whole) did not want a popular vote for President. This was advocated by some at the Convention, and early on several states adopted the system we have now which is the populace electing the electors rather than them being chosen by the legislature. It also seems worth pointing out that while Jefferson and Adams were still alive, the U.S. House proposed direct election of senators. ( Source)
Bottom line, it's a much more complex picture than what Paleo is trying to present. You have to look at their understanding of what democracy meant (such as the influence of Montesquieu). They were generally opposed to "direct democracy." Most of their critiques (cited by Paleo earlier) deal with that form of democracy.
As an aside, I find it funny that one of the quotes opposing democracy came of Eldridge Gerry, because of course he did. Lol.
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Paleocon
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Post by Paleocon on Nov 13, 2024 21:32:25 GMT
Does that apply anywhere but the House tho? The federal Senate was chosen by state legislators up until 1913. The Founders clearly did not want democracy to play a role in the formation of the Senate. For the leftists who have been so programmed to avoid this ... here's Senate.gov to set you straight.
Voters have selected U.S. senators in the privacy of the voting booth since 1913. This system of “direct election” was not what the framers of the U.S. Constitution had in mind, however, when they met at the Constitutional Convention in 1787. Article I, section 3 of the U.S. Constitution, as written by the framers, provided for election of senators by state legislatures.
And the president is the same. The founders clearly did not want the popular vote to decide the Senate.
Since the federal government was deemed "the government of the states" ... it was the states that chose their representatives, not the People. The House was The People's House because it was literally the only federal building the People had any say in.
Queshank
Essentially it's about how sovereignty and power were ultimately derived from the people. If you read through the debates over the Constitution, you'll find citations of, and references/allusions to, Montesquieu, who wrote:
"WHEN the body of the people is possessed of the supreme power, this is called a democracy. When the supreme power is lodged in the hands of a part of the people, it is then an aristocracy. In a democracy the people are in some respects the sovereign, and in others the subject." ( The Spirit of the Laws)
This is reflected in Dr. Charles Jarvis' statement at the Massachusetts convention: "He considered the Constitution as an elective democracy, in which the sovereignty still rested in the people." ( Source)
Here's John Marshall in the state convention debate, speaking of the Constitution as a whole, not just the House:
"Mr. Chairman, I conceive that the object of the discussion now before us is, whether democracy or despotism be most eligible. I am sure that those who framed the system submitted to our investigation, and those who now support it, intend the establishment and security of the former. The supporters of the Constitution claim the title of being firm friends of the liberty and the rights of mankind. They say that they consider it as the best means of protecting liberty. We, sir, idolize democracy. Those who oppose it have bestowed eulogiums on monarchy. We prefer this system to any monarchy, because we are convinced that it has a greater tendency to secure our liberty and promote our happiness. We admire it, because we think it a well-regulated democracy. It is recommended to the good people of this country: they are, through us, to declare whether it be such a plan of government as will establish and secure their freedom." ( Source)
[Montesquieu also wrote about well-regulated democracies].
Also, not exactly true that the Founders (as a whole) did not want a popular vote for President. This was advocated by some at the Convention, and early on several states adopted the system we have now which is the populace electing the electors rather than them being chosen by the legislature. It also seems worth pointing out that while Jefferson and Adams were still alive, the U.S. House proposed direct election of senators. ( Source)
Bottom line, it's a much more complex picture than what Paleo is trying to present. You have to look at their understanding of what democracy meant (such as the influence of Montesquieu). They were generally opposed to "direct democracy." Most of their critiques (cited by Paleo earlier) deal with that form of democracy.
As an aside, I find it funny that one of the quotes opposing democracy came of Eldridge Gerry, because of course he did. Lol.
The picture might have been complex but what was actually rendered by the Founders as our Federal government was not. Don't try to conflate the two. What was left behind at the end of the Convention debates are just opinions discarded, including the notion that we've ever been a democracy.
Citing someone as vile as Marshall is not a plus for the "We're a Democracy!!!" cult. His deification of the Federal Judiciary (Marbury v. Madison) was a power grab by the robed oligarchy that pollutes this country to this day.
As noted by Queshank, only the House of Representatives involved any direct voting for representatives by citizens; the vast majority of government was placed beyond even the indirect democratic elements that you hang your hat on.
The great pains by the Founders taken to avoid democracy in the final version of our government should be a clear signal that we are not a democracy, but a Constitutional, Representative Republic
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demos
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Post by demos on Nov 13, 2024 21:38:27 GMT
The picture might have been complex but what was actually rendered by the Founders as our Federal government was not. Don't try to conflate the two. What was left behind at the end of the Convention debates are just opinions discarded, including the notion that we've ever been a democracy.
Citing someone as vile as Marshall is not a plus for the "We're a Democracy!!!" cult. His deification of the Federal Judiciary (Marbury v. Madison) was a power grab by the robed oligarchy that pollutes this country to this day.
As noted by Queshank, only the House of Representatives involved any direct voting for representatives by citizens; the vast majority of government was placed beyond even the indirect democratic elements that you hang your hat on.
The great pains by the Founders taken to avoid democracy in the final version of our government should be a clear signal that we are not a democracy, but a Constitutional, Representative Republic
Lol. You started out wanting to play the quote game, but now want to abandon it, when there are actual quotes of Founding Fathers calling our government a democracy.
You'd help yourself a lot if you would stop saying "The Founders" this or that. They weren't a monolithic group.
Some very clearly thought of our government as democracy and weren't trying to avoid it; they specifically used the term to argue in favor of adopting the Constitution. To say otherwise, you have to stick your head in the sand and ignore everything that was said.
Others did not; some didn't think it democratic enough. E.g., if you read the Virginia convention debates, Patrick Henry didn't think it was because it didn't adhere closely enough to Virginia's bill of rights.
EDIT: To quote Henry at length...
"What, sir, is the genius of democracy? Let me read that clause of the bill of rights of Virginia which relates to this: 3d clause: — that government is, or ought to be, instituted for the common benefit, protection, and security of the people, nation, or community. Of all the various modes and forms of government, that is best, which is capable of producing the greatest degree of happiness and safety, and is most effectually secured against the danger of mal-administration; and that whenever any government shall be found inadequate, or contrary to those purposes, a majority of the community hath an indubitable, unalienable, and indefeasible right to reform, alter, or abolish it, in such manner as shall be judged most conducive to the public weal. This, sir, is the language of democracy — that a majority of the community have a right to alter government when found to be oppressive. But how different is the genius of your new Constitution from this!" ( Source)
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Paleocon
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Post by Paleocon on Nov 13, 2024 21:48:09 GMT
The picture might have been complex but what was actually rendered by the Founders as our Federal government was not. Don't try to conflate the two. What was left behind at the end of the Convention debates are just opinions discarded, including the notion that we've ever been a democracy.
Citing someone as vile as Marshall is not a plus for the "We're a Democracy!!!" cult. His deification of the Federal Judiciary (Marbury v. Madison) was a power grab by the robed oligarchy that pollutes this country to this day.
As noted by Queshank, only the House of Representatives involved any direct voting for representatives by citizens; the vast majority of government was placed beyond even the indirect democratic elements that you hang your hat on.
The great pains by the Founders taken to avoid democracy in the final version of our government should be a clear signal that we are not a democracy, but a Constitutional, Representative Republic
Lol. You started out wanting to play the quote game, but now want to abandon it.
You'd help yourself a lot if you would stop saying "The Founders" this or that. They weren't a monolithic group.
Some very clearly thought of our government as democracy and weren't trying to avoid; the specifically used the term to argue in favor of adopting the Constitution. To say otherwise, you have just stick your head in the sand and ignore everything that was said.
Others did not (e.g., if you read the Virginia convention debates, Patrick Henry didn't think it was because it didn't adhere closely enough to the government of Virginia).
Unlike your quotes, mine align with the actual government established by the Founders, so no, not looking to "abandon" them.
Your strawman claim that I somehow consider the Founders as being monolithic thinkers is a figment of your imagination. "Thinking" of our government as a democracy doesn't reflect what the Founders actually agreed to in the end. At the end, with the Constitution as written, democracy was pushed as far away as possible without throwing it out completely. That's not a good sign that we were intended to be a democracy, regardless of what prefix you concoct to make it more palatable.
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demos
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Post by demos on Nov 13, 2024 21:53:19 GMT
Unlike your quotes, mine align with the actual government established by the Founders, so no, not looking to "abandon" them. Oh, so the people who were at the Constitutional Convention developing our government (people like Hamilton) didn't know what they were talking about?
That's the argument you really want to go with.  Then maybe you should clarify statements like this - "The great pains by the Founders taken to avoid democracy..." - when the plain evidence in front of your face says otherwise. You have multiple people specifically saying the Constitution - as written - is a democracy (and that is based on their understanding of democracy from influences such as Montesquieu).
You may not agree that it's a democracy, but you're denying the literal historical record with your claims here.
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Post by atreyu on Nov 13, 2024 21:56:44 GMT
It doesn't not surprise me a bit that Q and Paleo believe in jewish space lasers.
LOL
You're the only people who have ever brought up "jewish space lasers."
MSG didn't. But you falling for programming did. Isn't that weird?
Queshank
Ok, "space lasers" then. Big whoop, really doesn't change anything.
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demos
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Post by demos on Nov 13, 2024 22:26:13 GMT
For shits and giggles, Jefferson Davis' speech in Boston in 1858:
[Note: in some instances when Davis uses the word democracy, the first letter is capitalized because he is referring to the Democratic Party; that is not the case in these selections from the speech.]
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freonbale
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Post by freonbale on Nov 13, 2024 22:43:13 GMT
No, you just can't understand that WE ALL KNOW WE ARE A REPUBLIC. You say it to us, as if this is some magical information that only you know about, lol. But Democracy is happening all throughout our country. It's not one or the other, it's both, and that is why I said it is pointless explaining this to you. Freon There are democratic elements in our federal system, but not reflective of the whole. Democracy is like the fuel in a car....it's vital to the function, but one would be stupid to point to an automobile and say "that's a car but it's also gas!". I have no idea what you are hearing, but when we say we are a Democracy, we are encapsulating in that one word that we are a representative government. That our votes count towards what laws get implemented. And that is true at all levels of government. So Democracy as the fuel in your car analogy makes no sense. At some level of our Democracy, we switch from direct decision making (at local and state levels), to represented decision making (at federal levels). But we still choose our representatives at all levels. They are not appointed. So more accurate to say that Democracy is the driver of the car, but that at some level, they are not directly controlling the wheels or engine. At some level, the car's computer actually changes the gears, or applies the breaks, or turns the tires. Freon |
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MojoJojo
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Post by MojoJojo on Nov 14, 2024 2:54:11 GMT
We're a Constitutional Republic that uses democratic means to elect our government... You've heard of a Venn diagram? Picture two concepts, that overlap. We're a Constitutional Republic. We're also a democracy. Not sure why you'd want to ignore the democracy part, it's hard wired into the nation's Constitution...take solace in the fact that it actually works, you got your guy in the top spot! Democracy is as important and inseparably vital as fuel is in car. But it would be mind mindbogglingly stupid to say "it's a car, but it's also gas". Close enough... ...high octane mid-America won the race too! |
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RWB
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Post by RWB on Nov 14, 2024 4:41:09 GMT
Good news? LOL Well, at least she can call out the dems for creating and then steering hurricanes. They're both fucking loons, and if I was a republican, I wouldn't want them representing.me in any way. But hey, wingnuts gotta wingnut. not like you so called Progressives don't have your own nutcases like AOC Drunken Nancy Pelosi the terrorist loving twins Omar and Talib AND just like you if I was a democrat I wouldn't want them representing me either. BUT thank God I'm not a low IQ can't think for myself democrat. |
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Post by greebnurt on Nov 14, 2024 5:23:17 GMT
Good news? LOL Well, at least she can call out the dems for creating and then steering hurricanes. They're both fucking loons, and if I was a republican, I wouldn't want them representing.me in any way. But hey, wingnuts gotta wingnut. not like you so called Progressives don't have your own nutcases like AOC Drunken Nancy Pelosi the terrorist loving twins Omar and Talib AND just like you if I was a democrat I wouldn't want them representing me either. BUT thank God I'm not a low IQ can't think for myself democrat. Ummm, I'm not a democrat. You wanna do that one over? |
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