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Post by queshank on Nov 15, 2024 19:04:48 GMT
Ok that's not fair. I gotta remember I'm dealing with a young, modern leftist.
Who Machiavelli was talking about as the "establishment" in 1532 when he was writing those words, is not the same as what we today would see as the "establishment."
I wonder ... does the definition of establishment change over time?
Gee, I think it's the most obvious thing in the world that it does...
Queshank
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Post by atreyu on Nov 15, 2024 19:05:32 GMT
I see, I remember that B.S. now. If you have to interpret it, it isn't really a definition is it? Oof. I see why you were so vulnerable to the machinations. My interpretation is the definition. And let's be honest. It depends on the definition of "is" no? Queshank
So what are you arguing about? That's exactly what I said, establishment can mean anything because it's not defined. If it's not defined I can't know what people have in their head when they think about establishment.
From your description it sounds like the entire GOP is the establishment, Trump in included. They never want to do new, they want to be regressive.
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Post by RinsePrius on Nov 15, 2024 19:05:43 GMT
Timothy Melon, of the storied Melon family, is *also* part of the establishment. Earth shattering news, I am sure!
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Post by queshank on Nov 15, 2024 19:07:39 GMT
Oof. I see why you were so vulnerable to the machinations. My interpretation is the definition. And let's be honest. It depends on the definition of "is" no? Queshank
So what are you arguing about? That's exactly what I said, establishment can mean anything because it's not defined. If it's not defined I can't know what people have in their head when they think about establishment.
What's being illustrated here, is you have no curiosity about it either.
Like a modern leftist.
Or religious zealot.
Same same.
And we're back to square one. A thread to determine what OTHER people define as the establishment. I know my own definition.
See, I am curious ... about what other people think. It's why I'm so insufferably right all the time.
Queshank
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Post by queshank on Nov 15, 2024 19:10:15 GMT
Timothy Melon, of the storied Melon family, is *also* part of the establishment. Earth shattering news, I am sure!
lol
Ok I'll be your huckleberry.
How much influence does Timothy Melon have on our government and our lives compared to McKinsey?
I'll remind you of the thread where I demonstrated that McKinsey had inspired the NYSE to require diversity targets to be listed on the exchange, based on "research" that turned out to be total bullshit and that, as I argued in that thread, actually has harmed people of diverse ethnicities. Timothy Mellon? Thread that needle for me. Also ... is the establishment "systemically racist" if the establishment is pushing diversity quotas?
Queshank
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Post by Lomelis on Nov 15, 2024 19:40:32 GMT
You are such my bitch!!!
It seems like there's a lot of confusion as to what "the establishment" is. A lot of people think it just means 'rich.' Which is somewhat accurate considering the vast, vast majority of rich people support Democrats. The cognitive dissonance on display as they shit on working class people being poor for voting Trump while bragging about the highly educated high earners supporting Democrats is fascinating.
But what do you think?
Is this an example of the establishment?
Even more worryingly, the agenda of the Summit has been unduly influenced by US-based consultancy firm McKinsey & Company. The lead of African officials and ministers has been pushed on the backburner.
These developments are seriously unsettling.
The Summit concept note, as proposed by McKinsey & Company, reflects the interests of the US, McKinsey and the western corporations they represent. Meanwhile, Africa’s stated priorities are conspicuously missing, as a result.
Moreover, the so-called “think tanks committee” set up to drive negotiations at the Summit is chaired by individuals who represent UK and US-based organisations and not African organisations.
Queshank
There's not confusion, it's intentionally undefined so that it can mean anything. Kinda like deep state, or woke.
For Trump supporters it's anything or anyone we don't like.
I'll provide some basic definitions that broadly describe what people mean when they refer to the following: The Establishment: The entrenched elite, people and organizations, who control and/or heavily influence our government and public institutions. The Deep State: Entrenched bureaucrats and the agencies they control or work for acting independently of political control in order to further their own agenda often counter or in opposition to the political agenda they are supposed to be enforcing or implementing. Woke: The progressive mindset that essentially blames everything that is wrong with society on racism, sexism, misogyny, homophobia, transphobia, etc and believes those things are inherent to white people (primarily white heterosexual males) and white culture. |
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Post by atreyu on Nov 15, 2024 21:32:21 GMT
There's not confusion, it's intentionally undefined so that it can mean anything. Kinda like deep state, or woke.
For Trump supporters it's anything or anyone we don't like.
I'll provide some basic definitions that broadly describe what people mean when they refer to the following: The Establishment: The entrenched elite, people and organizations, who control and/or heavily influence our government and public institutions. The Deep State: Entrenched bureaucrats and the agencies they control or work for acting independently of political control in order to further their own agenda often counter or in opposition to the political agenda they are supposed to be enforcing or implementing. Woke: The progressive mindset that essentially blames everything that is wrong with society on racism, sexism, misogyny, homophobia, transphobia, etc and believes those things are inherent to white people (primarily white heterosexual males) and white culture.
Nah, don't believe you.
By your definition Trump is the establishment placing the establishment in important positions. And everything people call woke isn't woke.
I mean you really broke yourself here.
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Post by queshank on Nov 16, 2024 0:16:25 GMT
I'll provide some basic definitions that broadly describe what people mean when they refer to the following: The Establishment: The entrenched elite, people and organizations, who control and/or heavily influence our government and public institutions. The Deep State: Entrenched bureaucrats and the agencies they control or work for acting independently of political control in order to further their own agenda often counter or in opposition to the political agenda they are supposed to be enforcing or implementing. Woke: The progressive mindset that essentially blames everything that is wrong with society on racism, sexism, misogyny, homophobia, transphobia, etc and believes those things are inherent to white people (primarily white heterosexual males) and white culture.
Nah, don't believe you.
By your definition Trump is the establishment placing the establishment in important positions. And everything people call woke isn't woke.
I mean you really broke yourself here.
ROFLMAO
Leftists. Look at yourself here.
Trump is so "influential" with the government and public institutions .. that he couldn't even get them to do what he wanted when he was the fucking president.
The contortions you go through to rationalize your plucky underdog self image are remarkable to behold.
Queshank
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Post by atreyu on Nov 16, 2024 1:03:39 GMT
Nah, don't believe you.
By your definition Trump is the establishment placing the establishment in important positions. And everything people call woke isn't woke.
I mean you really broke yourself here.
ROFLMAO
Leftists. Look at yourself here.
Trump is so "influential" with the government and public institutions .. that he couldn't even get them to do what he wanted when he was the fucking president.
The contortions you go through to rationalize your plucky underdog self image are remarkable to behold.
Queshank
Contrast that with any president not being able to carry out their plans.
You're full of shit q.
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Post by queshank on Nov 16, 2024 1:09:12 GMT
Timothy Melon, of the storied Melon family, is *also* part of the establishment. Earth shattering news, I am sure!
I'm gonna be gone for the weekend TL. So I'll get this over with.
He's just a guy who donates money.
And considering this is the 3rd presidential election cycle where the Democrats outraised and outspent the Republicans by hundreds of millions of dollars, I think it's far and away time to rest this delusional idea that money has as much influence as the people who like to point out Republican megadonors and ignore Democratic ones pretend it does. Every election cycle it's fun watching all of that "Kamala/Hillary outraising Trump!" triumphant chortling fade into the background like it never happened.
Queshank
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Post by queshank on Nov 16, 2024 1:12:46 GMT
ROFLMAO
Leftists. Look at yourself here.
Trump is so "influential" with the government and public institutions .. that he couldn't even get them to do what he wanted when he was the fucking president.
The contortions you go through to rationalize your plucky underdog self image are remarkable to behold.
Queshank
Contrast that with any president not being able to carry out their plans.
You're full of shit q.
Jesus you're delusional.
List for me the Defense secretaries publicly and openly refusing to carry out orders in other administrations.
List for me the last time an underling from within the government literally spoke out about how they were working against the democratic process and the president in one of our major media outlets.
You dipshits spend 4 years trumpeting this shit from the hilltops and as soon as convenient .... it's just gone. Never existed. Story after story after story about government bureaucrats "resisting" that just ... poof.
And then Fiddler starts talking about proportions with this phenomenon on full display and making us all laugh at him : (
Queshank
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Post by atreyu on Nov 16, 2024 2:26:27 GMT
Contrast that with any president not being able to carry out their plans.
You're full of shit q.
Jesus you're delusional.
List for me the Defense secretaries publicly and openly refusing to carry out orders in other administrations.
List for me the last time an underling from within the government literally spoke out about how they were working against the democratic process and the president in one of our major media outlets.
You dipshits spend 4 years trumpeting this shit from the hilltops and as soon as convenient .... it's just gone. Never existed. Story after story after story about government bureaucrats "resisting" that just ... poof.
And then Fiddler starts talking about proportions with this phenomenon on full display and making us all laugh at him : (
Queshank
I get it, you want no checks an balances.
Smart.
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Post by queshank on Nov 16, 2024 3:03:29 GMT
Jesus you're delusional.
List for me the Defense secretaries publicly and openly refusing to carry out orders in other administrations.
List for me the last time an underling from within the government literally spoke out about how they were working against the democratic process and the president in one of our major media outlets.
You dipshits spend 4 years trumpeting this shit from the hilltops and as soon as convenient .... it's just gone. Never existed. Story after story after story about government bureaucrats "resisting" that just ... poof.
And then Fiddler starts talking about proportions with this phenomenon on full display and making us all laugh at him : (
Queshank
I get it, you want no checks an balances.
Smart.
/facepalm
Lookit you fucking up junior high school level civics.
Checks and balances aren't about each branch "checking" itself. They're about the 3 coequal branches of government balancing and checking each other.
Hey .. I notice you kept dodging that bit about how Schedule F is actually based on an act of congress that wasn't being followed. Maybe you just need more education on civics in general?
Queshank
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Post by RinsePrius on Nov 16, 2024 6:10:23 GMT
Timothy Melon, of the storied Melon family, is *also* part of the establishment. Earth shattering news, I am sure!
I'm gonna be gone for the weekend TL. So I'll get this over with.
He's just a guy who donates money.
And considering this is the 3rd presidential election cycle where the Democrats outraised and outspent the Republicans by hundreds of millions of dollars, I think it's far and away time to rest this delusional idea that money has as much influence as the people who like to point out Republican megadonors and ignore Democratic ones pretend it does. Every election cycle it's fun watching all of that "Kamala/Hillary outraising Trump!" triumphant chortling fade into the background like it never happened.
Queshank
Mckinsey also donated heavily to GOP midterm efforts. Their donations reflect their belief as to who is most likely to come to power, and are a down payment of sorts on political influence. These donations certainly aren't a clear signal of ideological affinity. I don't really need to say that, right? It's obvious. And yes, the Mellon family is part of the establishment. If you want to know which party is more "pro-establishment," look at their diverging policy goals. And I am saying that with full knowledge that the Democrats have largely abandoned the working class. I see that. This is a conservative, center right party. But the GOP has completely abandoned the working class when it comes to economic policy. All they have is cultural resentment. The problem is you can't eat cultural resentment. It doesn't keep you warm, dry, or fed. |
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Post by queshank on Nov 16, 2024 6:25:19 GMT
I'm gonna be gone for the weekend TL. So I'll get this over with. He's just a guy who donates money.
And considering this is the 3rd presidential election cycle where the Democrats outraised and outspent the Republicans by hundreds of millions of dollars, I think it's far and away time to rest this delusional idea that money has as much influence as the people who like to point out Republican megadonors and ignore Democratic ones pretend it does. Every election cycle it's fun watching all of that "Kamala/Hillary outraising Trump!" triumphant chortling fade into the background like it never happened.
Queshank
Mckinsey also donated heavily to GOP midterm efforts. Their donations reflect their belief as to who is most likely to come to power, and are a down payment of sorts on political influence. These donations certainly aren't a clear signal of ideological affinity. I don't really need to say that, right? It's obvious. Of course. But then there's also things like this. So readers don't get trapped into the bubble leftists have the past few years and think "McKinsey donating heavily to GOP midterm efforts" is any more meaningful than you acknowledge it is. Pete Buttigieg's campaign donors include top McKinsey employees - The Guardian - Jan 27, 2020Forty employees have contributed to the former mayor’s campaign as experts say his ties have ‘cast a shadow of questions’
There's a reason McKinsey donated to Republicans in the midterm efforts you're highlighting. Trump wasn't on the ballot.
Look how things shook out in 2024:
$304k to Kamala.
$10k to Trump? haha
19 democrat senators donated to, only 4 republicans?
60 House Democrats ... 9 Republicans?
Are they supporting the establishment do you think?
Yeah they've got establishment in their blood. The current crop ain't many world shakers. And as was made pretty evident in the article I shared above ... the family is pretty unhappy with Timothy. Who was never involved in politics at all until 2017 as a donor to anti establishment candidates including RFK Jr. I found it interesting how often he was called brilliant and an "analytical" mind quoted by family members describing his reclusive nature in that article, didn't you?
Could you clarify what you're driving at here? It seems like you started making a policy point then diverged into political talking points.
Which diverging policy goals should we take a look at?
Tariffs maybe?
Queshank
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Post by RinsePrius on Nov 16, 2024 6:45:30 GMT
Mckinsey also donated heavily to GOP midterm efforts. Their donations reflect their belief as to who is most likely to come to power, and are a down payment of sorts on political influence. These donations certainly aren't a clear signal of ideological affinity. I don't really need to say that, right? It's obvious. Of course. But then there's also things like this. So readers don't get trapped into the bubble leftists have the past few years and think "McKinsey donating heavily to GOP midterm efforts" is any more meaningful than you acknowledge it is. Pete Buttigieg's campaign donors include top McKinsey employees - The Guardian - Jan 27, 2020Forty employees have contributed to the former mayor’s campaign as experts say his ties have ‘cast a shadow of questions’
There's a reason McKinsey donated to Republicans in the midterm efforts you're highlighting. Trump wasn't on the ballot.
Look how things shook out in 2024:
$304k to Kamala.
$10k to Trump? haha
19 democrat senators donated to, only 4 republicans?
60 House Democrats ... 9 Republicans?
Are they supporting the establishment do you think?
Yeah they've got establishment in their blood. The current crop ain't many world shakers. And as was made pretty evident in the article I shared above ... the family is pretty unhappy with Timothy. Who was never involved in politics at all until 2017 as a donor to anti establishment candidates including RFK Jr. I found it interesting how often he was called brilliant and an "analytical" mind quoted by family members describing his reclusive nature in that article, didn't you?
Could you clarify what you're driving at here? It seems like you started making a policy point then diverged into political talking points.
Which diverging policy goals should we take a look at?
Tariffs maybe?
Queshank
Regarding the subject of policy and my reasons for saying the GOP has completely abandoned the working class, see the following post. libertynewsforum.boards.net/thread/22472/another?page=1&scrollTo=438139 |
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Post by DaveJavu on Nov 16, 2024 7:23:28 GMT
Of course. But then there's also things like this. So readers don't get trapped into the bubble leftists have the past few years and think "McKinsey donating heavily to GOP midterm efforts" is any more meaningful than you acknowledge it is. Pete Buttigieg's campaign donors include top McKinsey employees - The Guardian - Jan 27, 2020Forty employees have contributed to the former mayor’s campaign as experts say his ties have ‘cast a shadow of questions’
There's a reason McKinsey donated to Republicans in the midterm efforts you're highlighting. Trump wasn't on the ballot.
Look how things shook out in 2024:
$304k to Kamala.
$10k to Trump? haha
19 democrat senators donated to, only 4 republicans?
60 House Democrats ... 9 Republicans?
Are they supporting the establishment do you think?
Yeah they've got establishment in their blood. The current crop ain't many world shakers. And as was made pretty evident in the article I shared above ... the family is pretty unhappy with Timothy. Who was never involved in politics at all until 2017 as a donor to anti establishment candidates including RFK Jr. I found it interesting how often he was called brilliant and an "analytical" mind quoted by family members describing his reclusive nature in that article, didn't you?
Could you clarify what you're driving at here? It seems like you started making a policy point then diverged into political talking points.
Which diverging policy goals should we take a look at?
Tariffs maybe?
Queshank
Regarding the subject of policy and my reasons for saying the GOP has completely abandoned the working class, see the following post. libertynewsforum.boards.net/thread/22472/another?page=1&scrollTo=438139Was the GOP ever with the working class? It's hard to believe they ever were. |
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Post by atreyu on Nov 16, 2024 12:18:54 GMT
I get it, you want no checks an balances.
Smart.
/facepalm
Lookit you fucking up junior high school level civics.
Checks and balances aren't about each branch "checking" itself. They're about the 3 coequal branches of government balancing and checking each other.
Hey .. I notice you kept dodging that bit about how Schedule F is actually based on an act of congress that wasn't being followed. Maybe you just need more education on civics in general?
Queshank
Good lord what a surface level thinking to deflect.
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Post by RinsePrius on Nov 16, 2024 15:13:58 GMT
Was the GOP ever with the working class? It's hard to believe they ever were. Not in my lifetime. But if we go back and look at Teddy Roosevelt, I'd say a case could be made that he was certainly leaning in the direction of supporting the common man. |
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Post by Fiddler on Nov 16, 2024 15:32:52 GMT
Timothy Melon, of the storied Melon family, is *also* part of the establishment. Earth shattering news, I am sure!
How much influence does Timothy Melon have on our government and our lives compared to McKinsey?
LMAO.. So NOW you're concerned with proportions..
Q's Clue: They've been there all along.. You've just been too busy being right (wink, wink) to notice them..
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