demos
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Post by demos on Jul 17, 2020 15:10:34 GMT
There you go again. Do you actually think that it is factually or statistically sound to take the Cornerstone Speech, a single POLITICAL diatribe by ONE MAN among the 1% elitists, as proof of the motivation of the other five million Southerners of that era? I guess that means that a speech by Mark Zuckerburg or Jeff Bezos or even Mike Pence represents proof that the majority of Americans believe exactly the same thing, right?
You made the same fallacious error with the small list of Declarations of Causes and the insignificant number of statue dedication speeches.
Your idea of what constitutes evidence needs work, "bro".
There were 3 states that held referendums on secession: Texas (see post #139), Tennessee, and Virginia. Two of those - Texas and Virginia - issued declarations of causes, and majorities favored secession in both. ( Source) Tennessee held two referendums; voters rejected secession in the first and supported it in the second. So, it wasn't just 1% who shared Stephens opinion. That 1 percent argument is and continues to be specious. Even if it was only the 1 percent who held that view, they are still the ones who drove their states to secession, so their reasons for it are VERY relevant and can't be dismissed based on a flimsy numerical argument. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2020 15:12:20 GMT
There you go again. Do you actually think that it is factually or statistically sound to take the Cornerstone Speech, a single POLITICAL diatribe by ONE MAN among the 1% elitists, as proof of the motivation of the other five million Southerners of that era? I guess that means that a speech by Mark Zuckerburg or Jeff Bezos or even Mike Pence represents proof that the majority of Americans believe exactly the same thing, right?
You made the same fallacious error with the small list of Declarations of Causes and the insignificant number of statue dedication speeches.
You lame idea of what constitutes evidences needs work, "bro".
After a while, it becomes obvious that you will dismiss anything which does not confirm your biases and then it becomes clear that you are not discussing in good faith. There is nothing that could be said to change your mind. This is religion. Regarding those millions of Southerners, let me remind you that there was a draft which forced those poor whites to fight and die for those elitists and their slave economy. But, of course, your iron grip on the magic word "slavery" in no way represents any kind of confirmation bias on your part, right?
Just as your "forced to fight" propaganda fails to explain why that outnumbered, ragged, hungry army was so fiercely successful for so long against the power of the North. Such dedication does not come from being forced to fight for the elitists. That fact alone complicates your narrative.
John Keegan, the renowned British military historian, writes: “The American Civil War is one of the most mysterious great wars of history, mysterious because unexpected, mysterious also because of the intensity with which it took fire.” Among the war’s mysteries, he lists the following:
"Why should men who lacked a rational interest in the war struggle so fiercely against Northerners who … were frequently not to be distinguished from their poor Southern opponents?"
After all, Keegan notes, “many Southerners had no personal connection with slavery at all, neither as owners of slaves nor as employers of their labour. The considerable slave owners were … often resented by their non-slave-owning neighbours, though that did not deter them from joining in their thousands in the new Confederate army.”
This lack of “direct personal motivation” was an apparent “paradox,” which emphasized an “undeniable fact”:
"The gray ranks were but sparsely populated with large slave owners or their sons, but enormously by hardscrabble farmers and often by men who owned nothing at all."
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2020 15:15:59 GMT
After a while, it becomes obvious that you will dismiss anything which does not confirm your biases and then it becomes clear that you are not discussing in good faith. There is nothing that could be said to change your mind. This is religion. Regarding those millions of Southerners, let me remind you that there was a draft which forced those poor whites to fight and die for those elitists and their slave economy. But, of course, your iron grip on the magic word "slavery" in no way represents any kind of confirmation bias on your part, right?
Just as your "forced to fight" propaganda fails to explain why that outnumbered, ragged, hungry army was so fiercely successful for so long against the power of the North. Such dedication does not come from being forced to fight for the elitists. That fact alone complicates your narrative.
John Keegan, the renowned British military historian, writes: “The American Civil War is one of the most mysterious great wars of history, mysterious because unexpected, mysterious also because of the intensity with which it took fire.” Among the war’s mysteries, he lists the following:
"Why should men who lacked a rational interest in the war struggle so fiercely against Northerners who … were frequently not to be distinguished from their poor Southern opponents?"
After all, Keegan notes, “many Southerners had no personal connection with slavery at all, neither as owners of slaves nor as employers of their labour. The considerable slave owners were … often resented by their non-slave-owning neighbours, though that did not deter them from joining in their thousands in the new Confederate army.”
This lack of “direct personal motivation” was an apparent “paradox,” which emphasized an “undeniable fact”:
"The gray ranks were but sparsely populated with large slave owners or their sons, but enormously by hardscrabble farmers and often by men who owned nothing at all."
Magic word? When people tell you their motivations, its not magic to take them at their word. If anything, slavery has become a magic word for YOU. Its invisible. And I have to smile as you present the words of this foreigner as conclusive or decisive, as you ignore the words of the Americans actually involved. Maybe if he wasn't so far removed from the action, Mr Keegan would know that the Confederates had to draft their neighbors into supporting their cause. |
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demos
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Post by demos on Jul 17, 2020 15:20:24 GMT
Maybe if he wasn't so far removed from the action, Mr Keegan would know that the Confederates had to draft their neighbors into supporting their cause. And the high desertion rates. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2020 15:21:22 GMT
There you go again. Do you actually think that it is factually or statistically sound to take the Cornerstone Speech, a single POLITICAL diatribe by ONE MAN among the 1% elitists, as proof of the motivation of the other five million Southerners of that era? I guess that means that a speech by Mark Zuckerburg or Jeff Bezos or even Mike Pence represents proof that the majority of Americans believe exactly the same thing, right?
You made the same fallacious error with the small list of Declarations of Causes and the insignificant number of statue dedication speeches.
Your idea of what constitutes evidence needs work, "bro".
There were 3 states that held referendums on secession: Texas (see post #139), Tennessee, and Virginia. Two of those - Texas and Virginia - issued declarations of causes, and majorities favored secession in both. ( Source) Tennessee held two referendums; voters rejected secession in the first and supported it in the second. So, it wasn't just 1% who shared Stephens opinion. That 1% percent argument is and continues to be specious. Even if it was only the 1 percent who held that view, they are still the ones who drove their states to secession, so their reasons for it are VERY relevant and can't be dismissed based on a flimsy numerical argument. Virginia's Declaration of Causes was actually the Ordinance of Secession and it didn't declare any causes. Did those referendums reveal the reason why each person in that state voted in favor of secession? Believing that secession is the right thing to do does not equate to agreeing with Stephens; it's a logical fallacy to believe that it does.
That "flimsy numerical argument" is called statistics, which tends to be pretty solid evidence. Assigning the motivations of the 1% to part or all of the remaining 99% requires proof, which has not been forthcoming.
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bama beau
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Post by bama beau on Jul 17, 2020 15:24:26 GMT
And the part about those modern day anarchist liberals goes double when it comes to the darker ones. Or triple. They are the worst. Liberals. The worst liberals. I clearly didn't mean anything bad about darker people. Just darker liberals. On that, I want the record to be clear. This one evidently enjoys being the court jester. He can't tell the 18th from the 19th century, but jokes? He's got a million of them! You were just bitch slapped by a typo. Lighten up, Francis. Let it go. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2020 15:30:17 GMT
Magic word? When people tell you their motivations, its not magic to take them at their word. If anything, slavery has become a magic word for YOU. Its invisible. And I have to smile as you present the words of this foreigner as conclusive or decisive, as you ignore the words of the Americans actually involved. Maybe if he wasn't so far removed from the action, Mr Keegan would know that the Confederates had to draft their neighbors into supporting their cause. This "foreigner" was one of the preeminent historians of the 20th century, and better yet, arguably a more objective one because he is not an American.
Invisible? Like every other Southern motivation that YOU have promptly ignored, so long as someone somewhere uttered that trigger word?
Less than half of the Southern army was drafted and, conscripted or not, most of them fought like hell against a superior foe.
From Southerner who died while he was "actually involved:
Surrender means that the history of this heroic struggle will be written by the enemy; that our youth will be trained by Northern school teachers; will learn from Northern school books their version of the War; will be impressed by all the influences of history and education to regard our gallant dead as traitors, and our maimed veterans as fit subjects for derision. - Patrick Cleburne
It is said slavery is all we are fighting for, and if we give it up we give up all. Even if this were true, which we deny, slavery is not all our enemies are fighting for. It is merely the pretense to establish sectional superiority and a more centralized form of government, and to deprive us of our rights and liberties. - Patrick Cleburne
I am with the South in life or death, in victory or defeat. I believe the North is about to wage a brutal and unholy war on a people who have done them no wrong, in violation of the Constitution and the fundamental principles of government. They no longer acknowledge that all government derives its validity from the consent of the governed. They are about to invade our peaceful homes, destroy our property, and murder our men and dishonor our women. We propose no invasion of the North, no attack on them, and only ask to be left alone. - Patrick Cleburne
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2020 15:31:00 GMT
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demos
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Post by demos on Jul 17, 2020 15:32:19 GMT
Virginia's Declaration of Causes was actually the Ordinance of Secession and it didn't declare any causes. Did those referendums reveal the reason why each person in that state voted in favor of secession? Believing that secession is the right thing to do does not equate to agreeing with Stephens; it's a logical fallacy to believe that it does. I bring up the referendums to point out how severely flawed your 1 percent argument is. Lies, damn lies and statistics. And you've clearly demonstrated the sleight of hand some people try to use with statistics. Furthermore, no one is assigning motivations of "1 percent" to "99 percent." That's a strawman. |
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bama beau
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Post by bama beau on Jul 17, 2020 15:32:57 GMT
There you go again. Do you actually think that it is factually or statistically sound to take the Cornerstone Speech, a single POLITICAL diatribe by ONE MAN among the 1% elitists, as proof of the motivation of the other five million Southerners of that era? I guess that means that a speech by Mark Zuckerburg or Jeff Bezos or even Mike Pence represents proof that the majority of Americans believe exactly the same thing, right?
You made the same fallacious error with the small list of Declarations of Causes and the insignificant number of statue dedication speeches.
You lame idea of what constitutes evidences needs work, "bro".
After a while, it becomes obvious that you will dismiss anything (and I do mean *anything*) which does not confirm your biases. It is clear that you are not discussing this in good faith. Regarding those millions of Southerners, let me remind you that there was a draft which forced those poor folks to fight and die for the Southern 1% and their slave economy. I believe you've made that point yourself. And now you want to ignore the reasons the elite gave for their war. You've made an art out of ignoring and dismissing the obvious. If we do year end awards again on the boards, I nominate you for the Ray Charles Poster of the Year. A darkie? You're nominating paleocon for an award named after a darkie? He's probably in the ER being treated for the vapors as we speak. As for Ray Charles lending his name to an award given for racial apathy, it's probably a good thing that he didn't live to see this. |
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demos
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Post by demos on Jul 17, 2020 15:36:39 GMT
From Southerner who died while he was "actually involved: From another Southerner who was "actually" involved: "Now Govr. do tell me how we poor soldiers who are fighting for the rich mans Negro can support our families at $11 per month? How can the poor live? I dread to see the summer as I am fearful there will be much suffering now…" ( Source) And Mosby was quoted earlier, but you reject/deny/ignore any thing that conflicts with the position you have staked out. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2020 15:36:50 GMT
Magic word? When people tell you their motivations, its not magic to take them at their word. If anything, slavery has become a magic word for YOU. Its invisible. And I have to smile as you present the words of this foreigner as conclusive or decisive, as you ignore the words of the Americans actually involved. Maybe if he wasn't so far removed from the action, Mr Keegan would know that the Confederates had to draft their neighbors into supporting their cause. This "foreigner" was one of the preeminent historians of the 20th century, and better yet, arguably a more objective one because he is not an American.
Invisible? Like every other Southern motivation that YOU have promptly ignored, so long as someone somewhere uttered that trigger word?
Less than half of the Southern army was drafted and, conscripted or not, most of them fought like hell against a superior foe.
From Southerner who died while he was "actually involved:
Surrender means that the history of this heroic struggle will be written by the enemy; that our youth will be trained by Northern school teachers; will learn from Northern school books their version of the War; will be impressed by all the influences of history and education to regard our gallant dead as traitors, and our maimed veterans as fit subjects for derision. - Patrick Cleburne
It is said slavery is all we are fighting for, and if we give it up we give up all. Even if this were true, which we deny, slavery is not all our enemies are fighting for. It is merely the pretense to establish sectional superiority and a more centralized form of government, and to deprive us of our rights and liberties. - Patrick Cleburne
I am with the South in life or death, in victory or defeat. I believe the North is about to wage a brutal and unholy war on a people who have done them no wrong, in violation of the Constitution and the fundamental principles of government. They no longer acknowledge that all government derives its validity from the consent of the governed. They are about to invade our peaceful homes, destroy our property, and murder our men and dishonor our women. We propose no invasion of the North, no attack on them, and only ask to be left alone. - Patrick Cleburne
I simply smile at all of this. You're listing quotes after you have dismissed so many relevant quotes for no good reason. Why do your quotes deserve weight when all the rest do not? Alexander Stephens was *also* "actually involved." So were the folks who drafted those secession documents. Yet we ignore them. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2020 15:40:00 GMT
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2020 15:43:46 GMT
After a while, it becomes obvious that you will dismiss anything (and I do mean *anything*) which does not confirm your biases. It is clear that you are not discussing this in good faith. Regarding those millions of Southerners, let me remind you that there was a draft which forced those poor folks to fight and die for the Southern 1% and their slave economy. I believe you've made that point yourself. And now you want to ignore the reasons the elite gave for their war. You've made an art out of ignoring and dismissing the obvious. If we do year end awards again on the boards, I nominate you for the Ray Charles Poster of the Year. A darkie? You're nominating paleocon for an award named after a darkie? He's probably in the ER being treated for the vapors as we speak. As for Ray Charles lending his name to an award given for racial apathy, it's probably a good thing that he didn't live to see this. lol yeah, I have had Ray on the brain the last few days. My two year-old likes to close her eyes and put her arms out like she is looking for something. I tell the wife, "Violet is doing the Ray Charles again" and we laugh and smile. Of course, it is not so cute when a grown man does it on a message board but the parallel is hard to miss. |
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bama beau
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Post by bama beau on Jul 17, 2020 16:06:23 GMT
A darkie? You're nominating paleocon for an award named after a darkie? He's probably in the ER being treated for the vapors as we speak. As for Ray Charles lending his name to an award given for racial apathy, it's probably a good thing that he didn't live to see this. lol yeah, I have had Ray on the brain the last few days. My two year-old likes to close her eyes and put her arms out like she is looking for something. I tell the wife, "Violet is doing the Ray Charles again" and we laugh and smile. Of course, it is not so cute when a grown man does it on a message board but the parallel is hard to miss. My two year old granddaughter Georgia does the same thing, and she is named for a Ray Charles song. We think it's her way of building trust, and we trust that she's not doing it when she's alone. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2020 16:28:20 GMT
lol yeah, I have had Ray on the brain the last few days. My two year-old likes to close her eyes and put her arms out like she is looking for something. I tell the wife, "Violet is doing the Ray Charles again" and we laugh and smile. Of course, it is not so cute when a grown man does it on a message board but the parallel is hard to miss. My two year old granddaughter Georgia does the same thing, and she is named for a Ray Charles song. We think it's her way of building trust, and we trust that she's not doing it when she's alone. I hadn't thought of it that way but I think you may be right about trust building. Must be a 2 year old thing. |
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Post by Fiddler on Jul 17, 2020 19:00:00 GMT
More for our Slaver Apologist to ignore..
Confederate General Henry L. Benning to the Virginia legislature:
What was the reason that induced Georgia to take the step of secession? This reason may be summed up in one single proposition. It was a conviction . . . that a separation from the North was the only thing that could prevent the abolition of her slavery. . . . If things are allowed to go on as they are, it is certain that slavery is to be abolished. . . . By the time the North shall have attained the power, the black race will be in a large majority, and then we will have black governors, black legislatures, black juries, black everything. . . . The consequence will be that our men will be all exterminated or expelled to wander as vagabonds over a hostile Earth, and as for our women, their fate will be too horrible to contemplate even in fancy.
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Post by Fiddler on Jul 17, 2020 20:12:59 GMT
I've provide facts to back up everything that I've said on this thread as well as factually refuted the "official" (i.e., the politically correct fiction based on the "magic word) narrative. Yea.. No .. About that. Any honest reader of this thread will conclude that you haven't refuted anything and certainly not factually refuted. That whitewashed version of the Civil War South was debunked decades ago. At very best you've slammed your head against these facts to the point that you've enter into the coma of unenlightenment that we so often see in aspirant and accomplished racists.. Conceivably out of dishonesty or hopefully inherited ignorance you've consistently ignored the very words of those leading your beloved secession. You've dismissed the same facts with which I and I'm sure others pinned you to the mat a year or more ago. (though the Confederate memorial dedication speeches were a deliciously perfect addition to the drubbing you've earned). This thread is for certain the final nail in your denialist coffin .. it is a definitive takedown of the revisionist's fantasy of an honorable South. At this point I think the more interesting discussion to be had is in examining the pathology of a Confederate Apologist.. And with that .. Link |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2020 5:33:16 GMT
After a while, it becomes obvious that you will dismiss anything (and I do mean *anything*) which does not confirm your biases. It is clear that you are not discussing this in good faith. Regarding those millions of Southerners, let me remind you that there was a draft which forced those poor folks to fight and die for the Southern 1% and their slave economy. I believe you've made that point yourself. And now you want to ignore the reasons the elite gave for their war. You've made an art out of ignoring and dismissing the obvious. If we do year end awards again on the boards, I nominate you for the Ray Charles Poster of the Year. A darkie? You're nominating paleocon for an award named after a darkie? He's probably in the ER being treated for the vapors as we speak. As for Ray Charles lending his name to an award given for racial apathy, it's probably a good thing that he didn't live to see this. Notice that he's glad that a BLIND man didn't live to "see this". You just can't make this stuff up. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2020 5:47:47 GMT
Virginia's Declaration of Causes was actually the Ordinance of Secession and it didn't declare any causes. Did those referendums reveal the reason why each person in that state voted in favor of secession? Believing that secession is the right thing to do does not equate to agreeing with Stephens; it's a logical fallacy to believe that it does. I bring up the referendums to point out how severely flawed your 1 percent argument is. Lies, damn lies and statistics. And you've clearly demonstrated the sleight of hand some people try to use with statistics. Furthermore, no one is assigning motivations of "1 percent" to "99 percent." That's a strawman. Your referendum propaganda is a non sequitur; it's a logical fallacy to propose that the votes in the referendum were all or mostly cast for the same reason that the 1% favored during the dissolution.
And yes, I'm sure that anyone who rolls out that tired ole' "lies, damn lies...." cliche is not familiar with statistics. And then claim a "sleight of hand" without anything to back that up.
If you say that secession was about slavery, that implies a majority was motivated by that institution. I'm saying that it wasn't even close to a majority even among the 1%. It's as simple as that. I'll be waiting on your evidence; it would be the first of any significance that I have received.
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