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Post by Mercy for All on Jul 6, 2020 15:31:48 GMT
The problem is... commonalities. If you ask yourself what atheism has in common with anything else usually defined as a religion, you find next to nothing. Atheism, doesn't have a book or books, rites, a moral code,a code of conduct, idiosyncrasies ( e.g. prayers, cross fingers, kneeling... whatever...), clothes, items, symbols, traditions... Only religions have this stuff in them... So I don't see how someone could claim that atheism is a religion and keep a straight face. Your assessment is remarkably similar to that of some of the earliest critics of the first Christians. They are "atheists" (the Jews were also called "atheists" because in their temple, they apparently worshiped "nothing"). They are not "religious." (Note: the criticism was not at all that Christianity is not a "religion"--the concept of differing and competing "religions" is more a post-Enlightenment idea than anything you would find in the ancient world.) Christians were not "religious" because they did not have temples, priests, sacrifices, etc.--everything that defined "religious." How they lived was closer to what in that world would have been called "philosophy"--e.g. moral expectations, etc. But according to your expectation of the recognizable qualities of "religion," not all versions of Buddhism apply either. And there might be more commonalities than you might think, like an element of "faith" (dependence on unprovable tenets). So really, it depends on how general you want your definition to be. Or even if someone wants to simply acknowledge that some atheists are "religious in their belief" (although this would generally be a negative perception of religion, if they are critiquing an atheist on blind faith or aggressive proselytism, etc.). |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2020 16:09:45 GMT
The problem is... commonalities. If you ask yourself what atheism has in common with anything else usually defined as a religion, you find next to nothing. Atheism, doesn't have a book or books, rites, a moral code,a code of conduct, idiosyncrasies ( e.g. prayers, cross fingers, kneeling... whatever...), clothes, items, symbols, traditions... Only religions have this stuff in them... So I don't see how someone could claim that atheism is a religion and keep a straight face. Your assessment is remarkably similar to that of some of the earliest critics of the first Christians. They are "atheists" (the Jews were also called "atheists" because in their temple, they apparently worshiped "nothing"). They are not "religious." (Note: the criticism was not at all that Christianity is not a "religion"--the concept of differing and competing "religions" is more a post-Enlightenment idea than anything you would find in the ancient world.) Christians were not "religious" because they did not have temples, priests, sacrifices, etc.--everything that defined "religious." How they lived was closer to what in that world would have been called "philosophy"--e.g. moral expectations, etc. But according to your expectation of the recognizable qualities of "religion," not all versions of Buddhism apply either. And there might be more commonalities than you might think, like an element of "faith" (dependence on unprovable tenets). So really, it depends on how general you want your definition to be. Or even if someone wants to simply acknowledge that some atheists are "religious in their belief" (although this would generally be a negative perception of religion, if they are critiquing an atheist on blind faith or aggressive proselytism, etc.). I am afraid you didn't quite get my point. In order to give "religion" a definition general enough to include atheism, you'd have to include mathematics, stamp collection, foot fetishism and fan clubbing as well and many other things... You see take Christianism and Judaism for example, they both have: - Assemblies - Temples - Sacred books - rituals - Rites of passages - Priests - A lingo - A shared set of moral principles (that they don't really apply religiously I might add) - A code of conduct - Idiosyncrasies - a list of does and don'ts - many other things... Atheism has NONE of these things.... NONE! |
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Post by Mercy for All on Jul 6, 2020 16:20:43 GMT
I am afraid you didn't quite get my point. In order to give "religion" a definition general enough to include atheism, you'd have to include mathematics, stamp collection, foot fetishism and fan clubbing as well and many other things... You see take Christianism and Judaism for example, they both have: - Assemblies - Temples - Sacred books - rituals - Rites of passages - Priests - A lingo - A shared set of moral principles (that they don't really apply religiously I might add) - A code of conduct - Idiosyncrasies - a list of does and don'ts - many other things... Atheism has NONE of these things.... NONE! I'm afraid you missed my point. There are expressions of Buddhism (which most people would intuitively call a "religion") which also include next to none of these. Why don't you just suggest your definition of "religion" After all, according to your list, secret societies like the Masons and university fraternities would qualify... |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2020 16:55:41 GMT
I am afraid you didn't quite get my point. In order to give "religion" a definition general enough to include atheism, you'd have to include mathematics, stamp collection, foot fetishism and fan clubbing as well and many other things... You see take Christianism and Judaism for example, they both have: - Assemblies - Temples - Sacred books - rituals - Rites of passages - Priests - A lingo - A shared set of moral principles (that they don't really apply religiously I might add) - A code of conduct - Idiosyncrasies - a list of does and don'ts - many other things... Atheism has NONE of these things.... NONE! I'm afraid you missed my point. There are expressions of Buddhism (which most people would intuitively call a "religion") which also include next to none of these. The thing is that some expressions of Buddhism don't consider themselves as religions nor are they considered as such by educated people in general. So your example is not very good.Why don't you just suggest your definition of "religion" After all, according to your list, secret societies like the Masons and university fraternities would qualify... If they include a belief in the "surnatural" then they definitely qualify. Don't forget that freemasons were outlawed by the church for a long time... Like two cats not wanting to share the same litter box, they weren't really on friendly terms. Philippe Le Bel king of France exterminated the order of the Knights Templar and he was supported in his effort by the Pope himself. Thousands of people tortured, judged and burned at the stake!
Our modern freemasons are but sort of descendants of these early groups. |
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Post by Mercy for All on Jul 6, 2020 21:13:31 GMT
If they include a belief in the "surnatural" then they definitely qualify. Don't forget that freemasons were outlawed by the church for a long time... Like two cats not wanting to share the same litter box, they weren't really on friendly terms. Philippe Le Bel king of France exterminated the order of the Knights Templar and he was supported in his effort by the Pope himself. Thousands of people tortured, judged and burned at the stake!
Our modern freemasons are but sort of descendants of these early groups. I assume by "the Church" you mean the "Roman Catholic Church," which certainly wasn't the totality of Christians in the world. Neither was it homogenous. Consider that the Knights of Templar actually were Roman Catholic Christians. There were a lot of people within the same organization (entity? institution?) that were "not really on friendly terms." And there was certainly more politics than religious belief in that, and had been at least since Constantine. Like any other organization that has human beings in it. |
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Odysseus
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Post by Odysseus on Jul 6, 2020 22:27:01 GMT
Nobody has won any award more than you have won LNF Newcomer. I'm only an instigator. limey is the perpetually fresh face.
If Limey has the perpetually fresh face, that must be from all the drinks that women throw in his general direction when he tries to sweet talk them into something untoward.
In reality it's only a ploy on his part to get more alcohol splashed into his gullet.
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bama beau
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Post by bama beau on Jul 7, 2020 4:02:56 GMT
Martin Luther didn't nail nearly as much crap to the door
as davejavu has just dumped on the forum, yet dave would
not have any problem calling Luther's complaints religion
while calling his own complaints what Luther called his.
A disputation.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2020 5:59:23 GMT
Martin Luther didn't nail nearly as much crap to the door as davejavu has just dumped on the forum,... You're full of it. |
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bama beau
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Post by bama beau on Jul 7, 2020 6:17:01 GMT
Martin Luther didn't nail nearly as much crap to the door as davejavu has just dumped on the forum,... You're full of it. Aren't we all. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2020 13:24:09 GMT
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bama beau
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Post by bama beau on Jul 7, 2020 15:12:28 GMT
Bravo! You've identified your area of expertise. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2020 16:06:55 GMT
Bravo! You've identified your area of expertise. I don't think so. It doesn't take an expert to see what's as plain as the nose on one's face. You're an obnoxious little prick who's main ambition is to rattle people who have ideas. You're as useless to this board as imbeciles like bert and harry used to be, but I guess having people like you around is the price we must pay to have a board where every sensibility can express itself without fear of being banned. Your kind comes with the territory. |
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bama beau
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Post by bama beau on Jul 7, 2020 17:14:16 GMT
Bravo! You've identified your area of expertise. I don't think so. It doesn't take an expert to see what's as plain as the nose on one's face. You're an obnoxious little prick who's main ambition is to rattle people who have ideas. You're as useless to this board as imbeciles like bert and harry used to be, but I guess having people like you around is the price we must pay to have a board where every sensibility can express itself without fear of being banned. Your kind comes with the territory. "People who have ideas"? What original ideas do you have? And when will you first share one? I'll stick with my stated analysis. You're at least as full of crap as those over whom you feign superiority. Trust me. I know BS when I read it. Proudly. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2020 17:24:00 GMT
I don't think so. It doesn't take an expert to see what's as plain as the nose on one's face. You're an obnoxious little prick who's main ambition is to rattle people who have ideas. You're as useless to this board as imbeciles like bert and harry used to be, but I guess having people like you around is the price we must pay to have a board where every sensibility can express itself without fear of being banned. Your kind comes with the territory. "People who have ideas"? What original ideas do you have? And when will you first share one? I'll stick with my stated analysis. You're at least as full of crap as those over whom you feign superiority. Trust me. I know BS when I read it. Proudly. I don't feign superiority you idiot. It's easy to make such broad accusations when you don't have to prove them. You're a heckler. that's all you ever do. Analysis my ass. You're a textbook case of a professional troll. |
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bama beau
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Post by bama beau on Jul 7, 2020 17:34:20 GMT
"People who have ideas"? What original ideas do you have? And when will you first share one? I'll stick with my stated analysis. You're at least as full of crap as those over whom you feign superiority. Trust me. I know BS when I read it. Proudly. I don't feign superiority you idiot. It's easy to make such broad accusations when you don't have to prove them. You're a heckler. that's all you ever do. Analysis my ass. You're a textbook case of a professional troll. I do so wish then that you would stop wasting your precious time with me, and hurry back to your dilettante dissertation about a book which you have not only never read, but about which you just had to ask the title, you poser. You're going to be fun. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2020 20:16:48 GMT
I don't feign superiority you idiot. It's easy to make such broad accusations when you don't have to prove them. You're a heckler. that's all you ever do. Analysis my ass. You're a textbook case of a professional troll. I do so wish then that you would stop wasting your precious time with me, and hurry back to your dilettante dissertation about a book which you have not only never read, but about which you just had to ask the title, you poser. You're going to be fun. You fucking troll!! |
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Odysseus
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Post by Odysseus on Jul 26, 2020 3:44:29 GMT
I do so wish then that you would stop wasting your precious time with me, and hurry back to your dilettante dissertation about a book which you have not only never read, but about which you just had to ask the title, you poser. You're going to be fun. You fucking troll!!
If you don't like it here, I'm sure somebody can show you the door.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2020 5:38:56 GMT
If you don't like it here, I'm sure somebody can show you the door.
I don't like you. Do something gracious for once in your stupid life and rid us of your offending presence. Some of the shit you posted is among the dumbest shit that's ever been posted. |
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Odysseus
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Post by Odysseus on Jul 26, 2020 7:27:34 GMT
If you don't like it here, I'm sure somebody can show you the door.
I don't like you. Do something gracious for once in your stupid life and rid us of your offending presence. Some of the shit you posted is among the dumbest shit that's ever been posted.
Tough titty.
Go take your bile somewhere else.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2020 9:14:08 GMT
I don't like you. Do something gracious for once in your stupid life and rid us of your offending presence. Some of the shit you posted is among the dumbest shit that's ever been posted.
Tough titty.
Go take your bile somewhere else.
Who died and made you queen of this forum, asshole? |
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