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Post by DaveJavu on May 5, 2024 7:56:08 GMT
You know, one of the most repeated clichés about god's so-called goodness is "God is not responsible for the evil in our lives, we are." or something to a similar effect.
So in order to judge of god's benevolence, what if we removed man from the equation and examine the "rest of creation"? Take the lion for example. Do you know what's the major cause of death of a lion cub? It's being killed by its own father. Yeah, that's right. And you know why the lion does that? Because that benevolent god of yours, aka the randomness of natural selection, made the lion with powerful sexual urges and at the same time he made the lioness unable to have sex as long as she has offspring to take care of. That discrepancy is the cause of innumerable lion cub's deaths. So what is it that you god does about that. He increases the lioness' rate of reproduction so that the species won't go extinct by its own hand so to speak? Just as so many human civilizations caused their own extinction by different means that have been identified.
So you have two choices here, either this is the result of the cold indifference of natural selection, which still makes it an awful situation but at least there's no one to blame for it.
Or you have a god that is so cruel that he makes a species where normalcy demands that a lion kills his progeny on a regular basis, otherwise the species would increase in number too fast and it would cause a serious ecological imbalance.
If you think such a god cares about your little problems, you may be sorely disappointed.
But go ahead... pray... Maybe your god likes beggars... who knows?
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Post by freonbale on May 9, 2024 13:53:27 GMT
You know, one of the most repeated clichés about god's so-called goodness is "God is not responsible for the evil in our lives, we are." or something to a similar effect.
So in order to judge of god's benevolence, what if we removed man from the equation and examine the "rest of creation"? Take the lion for example. Do you know what's the major cause of death of a lion cub? It's being killed by its own father. Yeah, that's right. And you know why the lion does that? Because that benevolent god of yours, aka the randomness of natural selection, made the lion with powerful sexual urges and at the same time he made the lioness unable to have sex as long as she has offspring to take care of. That discrepancy is the cause of innumerable lion cub's deaths. So what is it that you god does about that. He increases the lioness' rate of reproduction so that the species won't go extinct by its own hand so to speak? Just as so many human civilizations caused their own extinction by different means that have been identified.
So you have two choices here, either this is the result of the cold indifference of natural selection, which still makes it an awful situation but at least there's no one to blame for it.
Or you have a god that is so cruel that he makes a species where normalcy demands that a lion kills his progeny on a regular basis, otherwise the species would increase in number too fast and it would cause a serious ecological imbalance.
If you think such a god cares about your little problems, you may be sorely disappointed.
But go ahead... pray... Maybe your god likes beggars... who knows?
What is 'good'? What is 'evil'? I do not see the lion example as either one. Freon |
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Post by Mercy for All on Jul 16, 2024 16:09:37 GMT
You know, one of the most repeated clichés about god's so-called goodness is "God is not responsible for the evil in our lives, we are." or something to a similar effect.
So in order to judge of god's benevolence, what if we removed man from the equation and examine the "rest of creation"? Take the lion for example. Do you know what's the major cause of death of a lion cub? It's being killed by its own father. Yeah, that's right. And you know why the lion does that? Because that benevolent god of yours, aka the randomness of natural selection, made the lion with powerful sexual urges and at the same time he made the lioness unable to have sex as long as she has offspring to take care of. That discrepancy is the cause of innumerable lion cub's deaths. So what is it that you god does about that. He increases the lioness' rate of reproduction so that the species won't go extinct by its own hand so to speak? Just as so many human civilizations caused their own extinction by different means that have been identified.
So you have two choices here, either this is the result of the cold indifference of natural selection, which still makes it an awful situation but at least there's no one to blame for it.
Or you have a god that is so cruel that he makes a species where normalcy demands that a lion kills his progeny on a regular basis, otherwise the species would increase in number too fast and it would cause a serious ecological imbalance.
If you think such a god cares about your little problems, you may be sorely disappointed.
But go ahead... pray... Maybe your god likes beggars... who knows?
This has sat here for a while (and I think it's the second time it has been posted, either here or on the former board). My question: if there is a "hierarchy of creation," why would we expect a lion to demonstrate "a good God"? Would we expect that of bacteria? It seems to me that in the biblical narrative, it is humanity that is tasked with being the "image of God," not lions... ...not that we've done such a great job of it. |
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Post by DaveJavu on Jul 16, 2024 20:50:12 GMT
You know, one of the most repeated clichés about god's so-called goodness is "God is not responsible for the evil in our lives, we are." or something to a similar effect.
So in order to judge of god's benevolence, what if we removed man from the equation and examine the "rest of creation"? Take the lion for example. Do you know what's the major cause of death of a lion cub? It's being killed by its own father. Yeah, that's right. And you know why the lion does that? Because that benevolent god of yours, aka the randomness of natural selection, made the lion with powerful sexual urges and at the same time he made the lioness unable to have sex as long as she has offspring to take care of. That discrepancy is the cause of innumerable lion cub's deaths. So what is it that you god does about that. He increases the lioness' rate of reproduction so that the species won't go extinct by its own hand so to speak? Just as so many human civilizations caused their own extinction by different means that have been identified.
So you have two choices here, either this is the result of the cold indifference of natural selection, which still makes it an awful situation but at least there's no one to blame for it.
Or you have a god that is so cruel that he makes a species where normalcy demands that a lion kills his progeny on a regular basis, otherwise the species would increase in number too fast and it would cause a serious ecological imbalance.
If you think such a god cares about your little problems, you may be sorely disappointed.
But go ahead... pray... Maybe your god likes beggars... who knows?
This has sat here for a while (and I think it's the second time it has been posted, either here or on the former board). My question: if there is a "hierarchy of creation," why would we expect a lion to demonstrate "a good God"? Would we expect that of bacteria? It seems to me that in the biblical narrative, it is humanity that is tasked with being the "image of God," not lions... ...not that we've done such a great job of it. The point is that assuming a god knowingly created it, the lion has no choice but to be a regular killer of his progeny and that the only one responsible for that state of affairs is god... Or nobody. You didn't respond to that, or even address it, I am sorry to say. As an aside, why do you attach so much importance to whether something like that has been posted before? Again without addressing it. |
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Post by Mercy for All on Jul 16, 2024 22:06:19 GMT
This has sat here for a while (and I think it's the second time it has been posted, either here or on the former board). My question: if there is a "hierarchy of creation," why would we expect a lion to demonstrate "a good God"? Would we expect that of bacteria? It seems to me that in the biblical narrative, it is humanity that is tasked with being the "image of God," not lions... ...not that we've done such a great job of it. The point is that assuming a god knowingly created it, the lion has no choice but to be a regular killer of his progeny and that the only one responsible for that state of affairs is god... Or nobody. You didn't respond to that, or even address it, I am sorry to say. As an aside, why do you attach so much importance to whether something like that has been posted before? Again without addressing it. There was a conversation about it before...not sure what direction it took. I'm pretty sure I responded to it, but this current response was not my response at that time. As for "the only one responsible for that state of affairs is god," well, I think we have a pretty shallow understanding of the original context of the creation story (and by "we," I don't mean "you and me"; I mean Christians in the western world). An Ancient Near East (ANE) understanding of Creation as described in the Bible (which is certainly justified in the text if we can see beyond "what we've always been taught") reveals an "incomplete creation" over which humanity is given dominion in order to bring order out of the chaos...as the "image of God," the ruling representatives of God in this sphere of existence. In that case, the lion would be an example of that "chaos." The older the biblical texts, the more likely the "lion" is actually a symbol of chaos, a wilderness creature, like the snake in the desert or the sea monster in the ocean...a negative, predatory, destructive image. It's only in later texts that the lion symbol is leveraged positively (e.g., the "Lion of Judah" as a messianic figure/title). Part of the problem has been the imposition of Greek philosophy on our understanding of the text, that takes the pronouncement of "very good" and interprets it as "perfect" (e.g., in some kind of Platonic way), which the text absolutely does not say. |
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Post by DaveJavu on Jul 16, 2024 22:59:05 GMT
The point is that assuming a god knowingly created it, the lion has no choice but to be a regular killer of his progeny and that the only one responsible for that state of affairs is god... Or nobody. You didn't respond to that, or even address it, I am sorry to say. As an aside, why do you attach so much importance to whether something like that has been posted before? Again without addressing it. There was a conversation about it before...not sure what direction it took. I'm pretty sure I responded to it, but this current response was not my response at that time. As for "the only one responsible for that state of affairs is god," well, I think we have a pretty shallow understanding of the original context of the creation story (and by "we," I don't mean "you and me"; I mean Christians in the western world). An Ancient Near East (ANE) understanding of Creation as described in the Bible (which is certainly justified in the text if we can see beyond "what we've always been taught") reveals an "incomplete creation" over which humanity is given dominion in order to bring order out of the chaos...as the "image of God," the ruling representatives of God in this sphere of existence. In that case, the lion would be an example of that "chaos." The older the biblical texts, the more likely the "lion" is actually a symbol of chaos, a wilderness creature, like the snake in the desert or the sea monster in the ocean...a negative, predatory, destructive image. It's only in later texts that the lion symbol is leveraged positively (e.g., the "Lion of Judah" as a messianic figure/title). Part of the problem has been the imposition of Greek philosophy on our understanding of the text, that takes the pronouncement of "very good" and interprets it as "perfect" (e.g., in some kind of Platonic way), which the text absolutely does not say. I am responding (in my OP) to those who say (and they are many) that god is good and that the evil in our lives is our own doing, IOW that god should be praised for everything that happens since the bad that happens is not his but ours... I just gave an example of an objective bad that can't possibly be blamed on us (humans) and that shows that god (for someone who's a fanatic about morals) is not particularly anxious to clean his own backyard, if you'll forgive the figures of speech. |
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Post by Mercy for All on Jul 17, 2024 0:36:23 GMT
There was a conversation about it before...not sure what direction it took. I'm pretty sure I responded to it, but this current response was not my response at that time. As for "the only one responsible for that state of affairs is god," well, I think we have a pretty shallow understanding of the original context of the creation story (and by "we," I don't mean "you and me"; I mean Christians in the western world). An Ancient Near East (ANE) understanding of Creation as described in the Bible (which is certainly justified in the text if we can see beyond "what we've always been taught") reveals an "incomplete creation" over which humanity is given dominion in order to bring order out of the chaos...as the "image of God," the ruling representatives of God in this sphere of existence. In that case, the lion would be an example of that "chaos." The older the biblical texts, the more likely the "lion" is actually a symbol of chaos, a wilderness creature, like the snake in the desert or the sea monster in the ocean...a negative, predatory, destructive image. It's only in later texts that the lion symbol is leveraged positively (e.g., the "Lion of Judah" as a messianic figure/title). Part of the problem has been the imposition of Greek philosophy on our understanding of the text, that takes the pronouncement of "very good" and interprets it as "perfect" (e.g., in some kind of Platonic way), which the text absolutely does not say. I am responding (in my OP) to those who say (and they are many) that god is good and that the evil in our lives is our own doing, IOW that god should be praised for everything that happens since the bad that happens is not his but ours... I just gave an example of an objective bad that can't possibly be blamed on us (humans) and that shows that god (for someone who's a fanatic about morals) is not particularly anxious to clean his own backyard, if you'll forgive the figures of speech. Ah...okay, well, you have a legitimate point. Because either the lion thing "is good" or "it's our fault" in that scenario. |
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Post by atreyu on Sept 8, 2024 17:30:44 GMT
Any god that can't be bothered to say that it's wrong to own another human being on the most basic level is evil in my book.
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Post by Monster Man on Sept 8, 2024 18:40:27 GMT
Any god that can't be bothered to say that it's wrong to own another human being on the most basic level is evil in my book. Except... a major theme that played out was God freeing his people from slavery. Then the major theme from Jesus was to treat people well. There is also the issue with the concept of what much of the slavery was at the time too, which more along the lines of a form of indentured servitude. But hey, if we are using your standards, you spend more time on this forum complaining about ancient history of slavery while ignoring all the modern day slavery going on now. I guess that makes you evil. |
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Odysseus
Legend
Trump = Disaster
Posts: 41,112
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Post by Odysseus on Sept 8, 2024 19:49:30 GMT
Any god that can't be bothered to say that it's wrong to own another human being on the most basic level is evil in my book. Except... a major theme that played out was God freeing his people from slavery. Then the major theme from Jesus was to treat people well. There is also the issue with the concept of what much of the slavery was at the time too, which more along the lines of a form of indentured servitude. But hey, if we are using your standards, you spend more time on this forum complaining about ancient history of slavery while ignoring all the modern day slavery going on now. I guess that makes you evil.
No, it could however make YOU evil...
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thor
Legend
Posts: 20,453
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Post by thor on Sept 17, 2024 23:38:00 GMT
Any god that can't be bothered to say that it's wrong to own another human being on the most basic level is evil in my book. Except... a major theme that played out was God freeing his people from slavery. Then the major theme from Jesus was to treat people well. There is also the issue with the concept of what much of the slavery was at the time too, which more along the lines of a form of indentured servitude. But hey, if we are using your standards, you spend more time on this forum complaining about ancient history of slavery while ignoring all the modern day slavery going on now. I guess that makes you evil. But not other slaves. Your God is garbage. |
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Post by Monster Man on Sept 18, 2024 1:31:52 GMT
Except... a major theme that played out was God freeing his people from slavery. Then the major theme from Jesus was to treat people well. There is also the issue with the concept of what much of the slavery was at the time too, which more along the lines of a form of indentured servitude. But hey, if we are using your standards, you spend more time on this forum complaining about ancient history of slavery while ignoring all the modern day slavery going on now. I guess that makes you evil. But not other slaves. Your God is garbage. Bigots gotta bigot |
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thor
Legend
Posts: 20,453
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Post by thor on Sept 18, 2024 2:11:12 GMT
But not other slaves. Your God is garbage. Bigots gotta bigot Poor Jar-Jar. Hates his own religious texts. |
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