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Post by Mercy for All on Apr 29, 2024 15:30:19 GMT
Asking the right questions is an excellent pursuit. Expecting people to guess as to what you think the right questions are is not. Claiming you don't do that because it would make you look silly and then ignoring evidence that you actually do that is...well, silly. Ahh, I see your frustration, but you have come to the incorrect conclusion. Asking the right questions is based PURELY on your motivation. There is no trick to it. Are you intent on knowing the truth? Or do you just want to project your inaccurate dogma? You ARE asking the right questions if all you want is the latter. I keep coming full circle with you, Mercy. You embrace your dogma so completely, it defines you so totally, that even the IDEA that you would try and learn outside of it is not an option for you. I can accept this for Stu, Lomelis, RWB, etc, because they are sheep, and will do what they are told by their handlers. They don't know better. But you? You are educated, and an educator. You speak for all of us who are, and yet you still behave exactly as they do. I expect more from you, but in the end, you really are just like them. I suppose that data point is worth knowing. That you can have educated people who use that education to reinforce their dogma, rather than exercise their open-mindedness and curiosity. Freon This is all a diversion from the fact that you claimed to only pursue "the right questions" in conversation with me, and that to have done it with others would have made you look silly. And yet you do it with others. These are your own words. "Dogma" has absolutely nothing to do with it. You keep bringing up religion. Why are you so obsessed with that?
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freonbale
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Post by freonbale on Apr 29, 2024 16:39:51 GMT
Ahh, I see your frustration, but you have come to the incorrect conclusion. Asking the right questions is based PURELY on your motivation. There is no trick to it. Are you intent on knowing the truth? Or do you just want to project your inaccurate dogma? You ARE asking the right questions if all you want is the latter. I keep coming full circle with you, Mercy. You embrace your dogma so completely, it defines you so totally, that even the IDEA that you would try and learn outside of it is not an option for you. I can accept this for Stu, Lomelis, RWB, etc, because they are sheep, and will do what they are told by their handlers. They don't know better. But you? You are educated, and an educator. You speak for all of us who are, and yet you still behave exactly as they do. I expect more from you, but in the end, you really are just like them. I suppose that data point is worth knowing. That you can have educated people who use that education to reinforce their dogma, rather than exercise their open-mindedness and curiosity. Freon This is all a diversion from the fact that you claimed to only pursue "the right questions" in conversation with me, and that to have done it with others would have made you look silly. And yet you do it with others. These are your own words. "Dogma" has absolutely nothing to do with it. You keep bringing up religion. Why are you so obsessed with that? No it is not a diversion. It's the exact same conversation we've had a thousand times. That you think it is, shows that you do not understand context. Your love of dogma is so complete, you would never ask a question to challenge it. And until you do, we cannot have a real conversation. Freon
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Post by Mercy for All on Apr 29, 2024 17:24:47 GMT
This is all a diversion from the fact that you claimed to only pursue "the right questions" in conversation with me, and that to have done it with others would have made you look silly. And yet you do it with others. These are your own words. "Dogma" has absolutely nothing to do with it. You keep bringing up religion. Why are you so obsessed with that? No it is not a diversion. It's the exact same conversation we've had a thousand times. That you think it is, shows that you do not understand context. Your love of dogma is so complete, you would never ask a question to challenge it. And until you do, we cannot have a real conversation. Freon Again with the “dogma.” What is your obsession with religion? Can you even articulate what “dogma” you think informs my responses? And why are you still evading the “right question” issue? Like…your claim that I’m the only one you are concerned with about “asking the right questions”?
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freonbale
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Post by freonbale on Apr 29, 2024 17:40:55 GMT
No it is not a diversion. It's the exact same conversation we've had a thousand times. That you think it is, shows that you do not understand context. Your love of dogma is so complete, you would never ask a question to challenge it. And until you do, we cannot have a real conversation. Freon Again with the “dogma.” What is your obsession with religion? Can you even articulate what “dogma” you think informs my responses? And why are you still evading the “right question” issue? Like…your claim that I’m the only one you are concerned with about “asking the right questions”? Religion? You think this is about religion? That's just a component under your dogma umbrella. You look at ALL your training as authoritative. Even down to the finite definition of words that you happen to know. You have a tunnel vision tied to your limited knowledge, coupled to your lack of understanding (and curiosity) of anything deeper than that knowledge. This is what interferes with all our convos. This entire post directly addresses that 'right question' issue you brought up. Why can't you see that? Freon
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Post by Mercy for All on Apr 29, 2024 17:44:43 GMT
Again with the “dogma.” What is your obsession with religion? Can you even articulate what “dogma” you think informs my responses? And why are you still evading the “right question” issue? Like…your claim that I’m the only one you are concerned with about “asking the right questions”? Religion? You think this is about religion? That's just a component under your dogma umbrella. You look at ALL your training as authoritative. Even down to the finite definition of words that you happen to know. You have a tunnel vision tied to your limited knowledge, coupled to your lack of understanding (and curiosity) of anything deeper than that knowledge. This is what interferes with all our convos. This entire post directly addresses that 'right question' issue you brought up. Why can't you see that? Freon How do you know all this? And be specific. What dogma? Maybe offer a list…just a sampling.
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freonbale
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Post by freonbale on Apr 29, 2024 18:39:41 GMT
Religion? You think this is about religion? That's just a component under your dogma umbrella. You look at ALL your training as authoritative. Even down to the finite definition of words that you happen to know. You have a tunnel vision tied to your limited knowledge, coupled to your lack of understanding (and curiosity) of anything deeper than that knowledge. This is what interferes with all our convos. This entire post directly addresses that 'right question' issue you brought up. Why can't you see that? Freon How do you know all this? And be specific. What dogma? Maybe offer a list…just a sampling. I offer it every time we talk, Mercy. It interferes with almost all our convos, and I point it out every single time it does. What more do you want? Stop believing that what you know is the ONLY way of seeing things. Stop assuming the definitions and concepts you hold dear, are the ONLY definitions and concepts. Once you start arguing that my way of seeing things, or defining terms, or my use of metaphor or inference challenges yours, and is therefore 'wrong', then the convo ends. You do not get to decide what is, and isn't. And for every authoritative document you believe defines the subject we are discussing, there are others that disagree with it. The total closed-mindedness to that reality is what must change, imo, else greater meaningful convos cannot take place. Without a mutual acceptance that the other's POV is plausible and generally accepted by at least some groups out there, it is just soap box spouting of personal opinions, and not a real convo. I am willing accept your opinions as those represented by the groups you connect with, but I demand you accept mine as well. Freon
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Post by Mercy for All on Apr 29, 2024 19:02:18 GMT
How do you know all this? And be specific. What dogma? Maybe offer a list…just a sampling. I offer it every time we talk, Mercy. It interferes with almost all our convos, and I point it out every single time it does. What more do you want? Stop believing that what you know is the ONLY way of seeing things. Stop assuming the definitions and concepts you hold dear, are the ONLY definitions and concepts. Once you start arguing that my way of seeing things, or defining terms, or my use of metaphor or inference challenges yours, and is therefore 'wrong', then the convo ends. You do not get to decide what is, and isn't. And for every authoritative document you believe defines the subject we are discussing, there are others that disagree with it. The total closed-mindedness to that reality is what must change, imo, else greater meaningful convos cannot take place. Without a mutual acceptance that the other's POV is plausible and generally accepted by at least some groups out there, it is just soap box spouting of personal opinions, and not a real convo. I am willing accept your opinions as those represented by the groups you connect with, but I demand you accept mine as well. Freon Appealing to a dictionary for a definition is hardly “dogmatic.” I’ll argue my position, which is hardly insisting that my opinion is the only way of seeing things. How is the way you argue any different? Isn’t that what we do here? Converse, compare positions. Argue our points of view. Why would I argue a position I don’t hold in a way that is persuasive? That’s not the same as insisting there’s only one perspective. But that doesn’t mean we burn the dictionaries.
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freonbale
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Post by freonbale on Apr 29, 2024 19:31:41 GMT
I offer it every time we talk, Mercy. It interferes with almost all our convos, and I point it out every single time it does. What more do you want? Stop believing that what you know is the ONLY way of seeing things. Stop assuming the definitions and concepts you hold dear, are the ONLY definitions and concepts. Once you start arguing that my way of seeing things, or defining terms, or my use of metaphor or inference challenges yours, and is therefore 'wrong', then the convo ends. You do not get to decide what is, and isn't. And for every authoritative document you believe defines the subject we are discussing, there are others that disagree with it. The total closed-mindedness to that reality is what must change, imo, else greater meaningful convos cannot take place. Without a mutual acceptance that the other's POV is plausible and generally accepted by at least some groups out there, it is just soap box spouting of personal opinions, and not a real convo. I am willing accept your opinions as those represented by the groups you connect with, but I demand you accept mine as well. Freon Appealing to a dictionary for a definition is hardly “dogmatic.” I’ll argue my position, which is hardly insisting that my opinion is the only way of seeing things. How is the way you argue any different? Isn’t that what we do here? Converse, compare positions. Argue our points of view. Why would I argue a position I don’t hold in a way that is persuasive? That’s not the same as insisting there’s only one perspective. But that doesn’t mean we burn the dictionaries. It should be the way we argue here, but you argue with the expectation that ONLY you know how terms are defined, or what concepts mean or how they should be interpreted. And when you hear me say something that challenges what you already know (your dogma), you rail against it more than ANY other person on this forum. You are known for it, especially when the argument is not going your way. And I have no issue if you believe things, or rigidly define terms. It's that you expect me to hold YOUR rigidity as the standard. I won't do that. I fully accept that my dogma is just that, and so I do not expect you to see me as authoritative. And I have no issue when you use terms in too simplistic a fashion. I give you the benefit of the doubt, because I know the gist of what you are saying, even though you've said it in a technically erroneous way. You do NOT do the same for me. One the one hand, if even one term I am using is not used perfectly appropriately to you, you call me on it, and yet when you do it, I don't say a thing, unless calling you hypocrite for the double-standard. It makes conversing with you tiresome, as we focus on the structure of the communication itself, instead of the topic of conversation. And again, you tend to do this most, when the conversation is not going in the direction you want, so it lacks consistency. And you don't seem to even know you do it. I wonder if the people you know outside this forum have called you on it... Freon
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Post by Mercy for All on Apr 29, 2024 21:36:05 GMT
Appealing to a dictionary for a definition is hardly “dogmatic.” I’ll argue my position, which is hardly insisting that my opinion is the only way of seeing things. How is the way you argue any different? Isn’t that what we do here? Converse, compare positions. Argue our points of view. Why would I argue a position I don’t hold in a way that is persuasive? That’s not the same as insisting there’s only one perspective. But that doesn’t mean we burn the dictionaries. It should be the way we argue here, but you argue with the expectation that ONLY you know how terms are defined, or what concepts mean or how they should be interpreted. And when you hear me say something that challenges what you already know (your dogma), you rail against it more than ANY other person on this forum. You are known for it, especially when the argument is not going your way. No. If I don't know a term, I look it up. In a dictionary. So we can agree on terms. If you're going to make up definitions for words ad hoc, then communication with you is useless. I should have paid attention to what Maestro said.
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Odysseus
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Post by Odysseus on Apr 29, 2024 21:38:09 GMT
It should be the way we argue here, but you argue with the expectation that ONLY you know how terms are defined, or what concepts mean or how they should be interpreted. And when you hear me say something that challenges what you already know (your dogma), you rail against it more than ANY other person on this forum. You are known for it, especially when the argument is not going your way. No. If I don't know a term, I look it up. In a dictionary. So we can agree on terms. If you're going to make up definitions for words ad hoc, then communication with you is useless. I should have paid attention to what Maestro said.
Why? What did Maestro say?
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Post by Mercy for All on Apr 29, 2024 21:39:13 GMT
No. If I don't know a term, I look it up. In a dictionary. So we can agree on terms. If you're going to make up definitions for words ad hoc, then communication with you is useless. I should have paid attention to what Maestro said.
Why? What did Maestro say?
I can't remember verbatim, but something like, it's useless to try to communicate with someone who plays games with language. I'd have to dig around to see if I could find it, but the search feature on this platform isn't very good.
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freonbale
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Post by freonbale on Apr 29, 2024 21:41:26 GMT
It should be the way we argue here, but you argue with the expectation that ONLY you know how terms are defined, or what concepts mean or how they should be interpreted. And when you hear me say something that challenges what you already know (your dogma), you rail against it more than ANY other person on this forum. You are known for it, especially when the argument is not going your way. No. If I don't know a term, I look it up. In a dictionary. So we can agree on terms. If you're going to make up definitions for words ad hoc, then communication with you is useless. I should have paid attention to what Maestro said. All you are saying is that you cannot view the world outside your dogma. Bummer. Freon
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freonbale
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Post by freonbale on Apr 29, 2024 21:42:48 GMT
Why? What did Maestro say?
I can't remember verbatim, but something like, it's useless to try to communicate with someone who plays games with language. I'd have to dig around to see if I could find it, but the search feature on this platform isn't very good. Like saying one should not view art created by people who play with colors. Freon
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Post by Mercy for All on Apr 29, 2024 21:43:18 GMT
No. If I don't know a term, I look it up. In a dictionary. So we can agree on terms. If you're going to make up definitions for words ad hoc, then communication with you is useless. I should have paid attention to what Maestro said. Why? What did Maestro say?
Sounds to me like you are unwilling to do something about an internal problem in your religion. If you had a family member who was acting inappropriately, you'd call them on it. That's not tribal, it's honorable and pragmatic. Who else will that family member listen to, if not their own family? The Republicans have misbehaving Republicans in the far right, so who is that far right going to listen more to, the Dems? Or their own Republicans? Your position puts the entire burden of fixing things on others. It's lazy. Freon You don't appear to have read my post, but rather chose to make a number of assumptions based on something other than what I typed. You certainly couldn't have read it, understood it, and then typed that first sentence in good faith. Freon, I believe in talking like adults, not in playing weird games. I've read many of your posts. You seem to like weird games. That doesn't really interest me.
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Post by Mercy for All on Apr 29, 2024 21:45:39 GMT
No. If I don't know a term, I look it up. In a dictionary. So we can agree on terms. If you're going to make up definitions for words ad hoc, then communication with you is useless. I should have paid attention to what Maestro said. All you are saying is that you cannot view the world outside your dogma. Bummer. Freon If "appealing to a dictionary definition" for the sake of "agreeing to terms" is "the inability to view the world outside your dogma" for you, then I don't know with whom you could have a reasonable conversation. Agreeing to terms would be the essential first step to having meaningful conversation to pursue understanding. Seems to me that insisting on ad hoc and idiosyncratic meanings demonstrates the desire to obfuscate rather than communicate—in other words, to "play weird games."
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Post by Mercy for All on Apr 29, 2024 21:45:57 GMT
I can't remember verbatim, but something like, it's useless to try to communicate with someone who plays games with language. I'd have to dig around to see if I could find it, but the search feature on this platform isn't very good. Like saying one should not view art created by people who play with colors. Freon You insist that purple is yellow.
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Odysseus
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Post by Odysseus on Apr 29, 2024 22:30:47 GMT
Why? What did Maestro say?
You don't appear to have read my post, but rather chose to make a number of assumptions based on something other than what I typed. You certainly couldn't have read it, understood it, and then typed that first sentence in good faith. Freon, I believe in talking like adults, not in playing weird games. I've read many of your posts. You seem to like weird games. That doesn't really interest me.
OK, thanks.
I don't agree with Maestro's denunciation of Freon, but that's another matter.
Can we please just go back to the thread topic: "Is Trump "The King Of Pettiness"?"
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Post by Mercy for All on Apr 29, 2024 23:32:39 GMT
OK, thanks.
I don't agree with Maestro's denunciation of Freon, but that's another matter.
Can we please just go back to the thread topic: "Is Trump "The King Of Pettiness"?"
You’re asking the wrong question…😉
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Odysseus
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Post by Odysseus on Apr 29, 2024 23:38:04 GMT
OK, thanks.
I don't agree with Maestro's denunciation of Freon, but that's another matter.
Can we please just go back to the thread topic: "Is Trump "The King Of Pettiness"?"
You’re asking the wrong question…😉
If you don't like the title of this thread, I suggest you create a new thread with a title you prefer.
This thread is titled "Is Trump 'The King Of Pettiness'?".
OK?
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Post by Mercy for All on Apr 29, 2024 23:59:09 GMT
You’re asking the wrong question…😉
If you don't like the title of this thread, I suggest you create a new thread with a title you prefer.
This thread is titled "Is Trump 'The King Of Pettiness'?".
OK?
You know what the winkie means, right?
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