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Post by Mercy for All on Apr 17, 2024 16:48:24 GMT
Christians do believe that God created everything, and the commonality of that understanding of who God is is true, over against pretty well every other belief system—Hinduism, Buddhism, atheism, polytheism, etc. So if you believe "God created everything," you don't believe that God doesn't exist, or emerged out of some pre-existing chaos, etc. The "God" you talk about isn't the same God that Muslims worship though. That is my point. I don't just believe that a "God" created everything. I believe, as do Christians, that God includes Jesus. Is that what you mean when you say "God" created everything? Depends on the level or resolution of the conversation. |
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Post by Monster Man on Apr 17, 2024 16:55:46 GMT
The "God" you talk about isn't the same God that Muslims worship though. That is my point. I don't just believe that a "God" created everything. I believe, as do Christians, that God includes Jesus. Is that what you mean when you say "God" created everything? Depends on the level or resolution of the conversation. No, it doesn't. The meaning doesn't change, only your honesty to discuss it. |
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Post by Mercy for All on Apr 17, 2024 17:38:03 GMT
Depends on the level or resolution of the conversation. No, it doesn't. The meaning doesn't change, only your honesty to discuss it. 1: Do you drive a car? 2: No! I drive a Prius!1: Well, that's a car. 1: No, you're being dishonest!!! |
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Post by Mercy for All on Apr 17, 2024 17:41:00 GMT
Depends on the level or resolution of the conversation. No, it doesn't. The meaning doesn't change, only your honesty to discuss it. 1: Have you ever met the President? 2: Well, yes, I have! 1: You met Joe Biden? 2: No, I met George Bush, Jr. 1: You're being dishonest!!! |
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Post by Monster Man on Apr 17, 2024 17:51:41 GMT
No, it doesn't. The meaning doesn't change, only your honesty to discuss it. 1: Have you ever met the President? 2: Well, yes, I have! 1: You met Joe Biden? 2: No, I met George Bush, Jr. 1: You're being dishonest!!!More like: Do Canadians and Americans have the same President? You: Well, I guess it depends on what level of the discussion we are talking about. You see, A President is the Chief Executive in a form of Democracy, and Americans and Canadians both have a Democracy... Me: No. |
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Post by Mercy for All on Apr 17, 2024 18:18:58 GMT
1: Have you ever met the President? 2: Well, yes, I have! 1: You met Joe Biden? 2: No, I met George Bush, Jr. 1: You're being dishonest!!!More like: Do Canadians and Americans have the same President? You: Well, I guess it depends on what level of the discussion we are talking about. You see, A President is the Chief Executive in a form of Democracy, and Americans and Canadians both have a Democracy... Me: No. Not at all. Does Canada have a President? Well, no, we have a Prime Minister. But if we did, the applicable question would be, does Canada have a President? Yes. But the higher resolution question: who is the president? What is his name (and, by implication, his identity, character, etc.)? Do you believe in God? Yes, I don't believe in gods or no god or pantheism...that's the first question. The second question is, who do you believe God to be? |
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Post by Monster Man on Apr 17, 2024 19:01:32 GMT
More like: Do Canadians and Americans have the same President? You: Well, I guess it depends on what level of the discussion we are talking about. You see, A President is the Chief Executive in a form of Democracy, and Americans and Canadians both have a Democracy... Me: No. Not at all. Does Canada have a President? Well, no, we have a Prime Minister. But if we did, the applicable question would be, does Canada have a President? Yes. But the higher resolution question: who is the president? What is his name (and, by implication, his identity, character, etc.)? Do you believe in God? Yes, I don't believe in gods or no god or pantheism...that's the first question. The second question is, who do you believe God to be?No, the question was: Do Canadians and Americans have the same President? Fine, Prime Minister... I will change it: Do Brazilians and Americans have the same President? The answer is still no. Its that simple. Wanting to talk about what a President is generally speaking has nothing to do with answering the question. People in Brazil and America do not have the same President. They both have a President, but not the same one. |
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Post by Mercy for All on Apr 17, 2024 19:57:49 GMT
Not at all. Does Canada have a President? Well, no, we have a Prime Minister. But if we did, the applicable question would be, does Canada have a President? Yes. But the higher resolution question: who is the president? What is his name (and, by implication, his identity, character, etc.)? Do you believe in God? Yes, I don't believe in gods or no god or pantheism...that's the first question. The second question is, who do you believe God to be?No, the question was: Do Canadians and Americans have the same President? Fine, Prime Minister... I will change it: Do Brazilians and Americans have the same President? The answer is still no. Its that simple. Wanting to talk about what a President is generally speaking has nothing to do with answering the question. People in Brazil and America do not have the same President. They both have a President, but not the same one. Do the Brazilians and Americans have the same "person that runs the entire world"? That's where the analogy breaks down. Analogies are great. Until they're not. |
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Post by Monster Man on Apr 17, 2024 20:04:26 GMT
No, the question was: Do Canadians and Americans have the same President? Fine, Prime Minister... I will change it: Do Brazilians and Americans have the same President? The answer is still no. Its that simple. Wanting to talk about what a President is generally speaking has nothing to do with answering the question. People in Brazil and America do not have the same President. They both have a President, but not the same one. Do the Brazilians and Americans have the same "person that runs the entire world"? That's where the analogy breaks down. Analogies are great. Until they're not. It was better than your analogy. The answer remains the same regardless. The answer is no. |
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Post by Mercy for All on Apr 17, 2024 20:05:59 GMT
Do the Brazilians and Americans have the same "person that runs the entire world"? That's where the analogy breaks down. Analogies are great. Until they're not. It was better than your analogy. The answer remains the same regardless. The answer is no. Funny...the guy that wrote the paper, I know him personally. I don't know too many people more passionate about his Christianity than him, and he's pretty well informed, academically and experientially. I wonder how he would respond if I told him that he's just "wrong," because someone interacted with online said so... |
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Post by Monster Man on Apr 17, 2024 20:15:10 GMT
It was better than your analogy. The answer remains the same regardless. The answer is no. Funny...the guy that wrote the paper, I know him personally. I don't know too many people more passionate about his Christianity than him, and he's pretty well informed, academically and experientially. I wonder how he would respond if I told him that he's just "wrong," because someone interacted with online said so... So, now you play the argument from authority game. I did not say he was just wrong either. My first response was: "Eh, I don't agree with the position here that if your audience understands God a certain way, or R1, then sure, why not agree that you worship the same God? I think you should obviously speak with some amount of grace, but it seems rather deceptive to say to someone R1 that yes, you worship the same God, knowing that you do not." You posted this on an online forum soliciting feedback. |
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Post by Mercy for All on Apr 17, 2024 20:47:23 GMT
Funny...the guy that wrote the paper, I know him personally. I don't know too many people more passionate about his Christianity than him, and he's pretty well informed, academically and experientially. I wonder how he would respond if I told him that he's just "wrong," because someone interacted with online said so... So, now you play the argument from authority game. I did not say he was just wrong either. My first response was: "Eh, I don't agree with the position here that if your audience understands God a certain way, or R1, then sure, why not agree that you worship the same God? I think you should obviously speak with some amount of grace, but it seems rather deceptive to say to someone R1 that yes, you worship the same God, knowing that you do not." You posted this on an online forum soliciting feedback. But it's not about agreement (i.e., to conclude the conversation), it's about starting point. We can have a further conversation (i.e., move from R1 to R3 or R4) if we don't shut down the conversation by implying "there's nothing to talk further about." Which it sounds like you're saying. |
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Post by Monster Man on Apr 17, 2024 20:56:43 GMT
So, now you play the argument from authority game. I did not say he was just wrong either. My first response was: "Eh, I don't agree with the position here that if your audience understands God a certain way, or R1, then sure, why not agree that you worship the same God? I think you should obviously speak with some amount of grace, but it seems rather deceptive to say to someone R1 that yes, you worship the same God, knowing that you do not." You posted this on an online forum soliciting feedback. But it's not about agreement (i.e., to conclude the conversation), it's about starting point. We can have a further conversation (i.e., move from R1 to R3 or R4) if we don't shut down the conversation by implying "there's nothing to talk further about." Which it sounds like you're saying. I did not say it was about concluding the conversation. The fact that you push that it is a starting point is exactly why I say it is deceptive. No one said to shut down the conversation, I specifically called out that you should speak with grace. You are speaking of tactics, not truth. And that is also why I say it is deceptive. |
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Post by Mercy for All on Apr 17, 2024 21:07:25 GMT
But it's not about agreement (i.e., to conclude the conversation), it's about starting point. We can have a further conversation (i.e., move from R1 to R3 or R4) if we don't shut down the conversation by implying "there's nothing to talk further about." Which it sounds like you're saying. I did not say it was about concluding the conversation. The fact that you push that it is a starting point is exactly why I say it is deceptive. No one said to shut down the conversation, I specifically called out that you should speak with grace. You are speaking of tactics, not truth. And that is also why I say it is deceptive. "They're not the same. They're different." End of conversation. "We both worship the Creator of everything...here's who I think it is in contrast to what you think..." Again, the guy who wrote the article is doing at on the ground. |
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Post by Monster Man on Apr 18, 2024 14:18:54 GMT
I did not say it was about concluding the conversation. The fact that you push that it is a starting point is exactly why I say it is deceptive. No one said to shut down the conversation, I specifically called out that you should speak with grace. You are speaking of tactics, not truth. And that is also why I say it is deceptive. "They're not the same. They're different." End of conversation. "We both worship the Creator of everything...here's who I think it is in contrast to what you think..." Again, the guy who wrote the article is doing at on the ground. Yet again, you presume that to end the conversation, I do not. We can speak to the common ground of the Abrahamic religions, without having to be dishonest about worshipping the same God. |
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