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Post by Mercy for All on Feb 24, 2024 3:07:24 GMT
If they haven't already, they never will. There’s this nifty excuse clause they use about being forgiven. Forgiveness can only be granted if one repents. None have nor will they. Not quite true. Forgiveness has already been granted. Forgiveness makes reconciliation possible. Repentance is necessary for reconciliation (and everything that reconciliation brings).
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Post by oldtrapper on Feb 24, 2024 6:59:37 GMT
Forgiveness can only be granted if one repents. None have nor will they. Not quite true. Forgiveness has already been granted. Forgiveness makes reconciliation possible. Repentance is necessary for reconciliation (and everything that reconciliation brings). I'm curious. Have you actually ever read the Bible, or do you always have to make the simple truth into one of your bloviated arguments. Acts 3:19 - Repent therefore, and turn back, that your sins may be blotted out, Matthew 4:17 - From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” 2 Peter 3:9 - The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. Acts 2:38 - And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 2 Chronicles 7:14 - If my people who are called by my name humble themselves, and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and heal their land.Matthew 3:8 - Bear fruit in keeping with repentance. Acts 17:30 - The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent, Luke 13:3 - No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.1 John 1:9 - If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
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Post by Mercy for All on Feb 24, 2024 14:16:42 GMT
Not quite true. Forgiveness has already been granted. Forgiveness makes reconciliation possible. Repentance is necessary for reconciliation (and everything that reconciliation brings). I'm curious. Have you actually ever read the Bible, or do you always have to make the simple truth into one of your bloviated arguments. Acts 3:19 - Repent therefore, and turn back, that your sins may be blotted out, Matthew 4:17 - From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” 2 Peter 3:9 - The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. Acts 2:38 - And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 2 Chronicles 7:14 - If my people who are called by my name humble themselves, and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and heal their land.Matthew 3:8 - Bear fruit in keeping with repentance. Acts 17:30 - The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent, Luke 13:3 - No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.1 John 1:9 - If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Now read those passages in context, and preferably considering the original language. Also consider the passages that seem to say something different such that you don’t fall into the trap of “eisegesis,” cherry-picking the text to confirm your pre-existing ideas. Also, is it possible for you to have a meaningful conversation without assuming the other person isn’t completely ignorant and without insulting them? Is that possible? Do you do this in every conversation? It just under the protection of online anonymity? By the way, we can take each of these passages in turn, but you've made a mistake in reading "repentance" as "asking for forgiveness." It doesn't mean that. At all.
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Post by DaveJavu on Feb 24, 2024 23:50:32 GMT
I'm curious. Have you actually ever read the Bible, or do you always have to make the simple truth into one of your bloviated arguments. Acts 3:19 - Repent therefore, and turn back, that your sins may be blotted out, Matthew 4:17 - From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” 2 Peter 3:9 - The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. Acts 2:38 - And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 2 Chronicles 7:14 - If my people who are called by my name humble themselves, and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and heal their land.Matthew 3:8 - Bear fruit in keeping with repentance. Acts 17:30 - The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent, Luke 13:3 - No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.1 John 1:9 - If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Now read those passages in context, and preferably considering the original language. Also consider the passages that seem to say something different such that you don’t fall into the trap of “eisegesis,” cherry-picking the text to confirm your pre-existing ideas. Also, is it possible for you to have a meaningful conversation without assuming the other person isn’t completely ignorant and without insulting them? Is that possible? Do you do this in every conversation? It just under the protection of online anonymity? By the way, we can take each of these passages in turn, but you've made a mistake in reading "repentance" as "asking for forgiveness." It doesn't mean that. At all. Aren't you forgetting that most Christians can't get these nuances? When have you stopped talking to people without a college degree?
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Post by Mercy for All on Feb 25, 2024 0:14:28 GMT
Now read those passages in context, and preferably considering the original language. Also consider the passages that seem to say something different such that you don’t fall into the trap of “eisegesis,” cherry-picking the text to confirm your pre-existing ideas. Also, is it possible for you to have a meaningful conversation without assuming the other person isn’t completely ignorant and without insulting them? Is that possible? Do you do this in every conversation? It just under the protection of online anonymity? By the way, we can take each of these passages in turn, but you've made a mistake in reading "repentance" as "asking for forgiveness." It doesn't mean that. At all. Aren't you forgetting that most Christians can't get these nuances? Most Christians can, if they're willing to stop and have a meaningful conversation. Most Christians can if they don't cling dogmatically to beliefs that cannot be supported biblically. As for OldTrapper, at least he's trying to make a case for his position. I don't think it's a strong case, but he's not just "making crap up." I just think that in this case, the interpretation has been imposed on the text; it doesn't "emerge from the text." It's a conversation I'm willing to have. I hope he is. I talk to people without a college degree all the time. I've been to college. Having done so, I'm less impressed with the degrees than I used to be.
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Post by oldtrapper on Feb 25, 2024 5:43:33 GMT
I'm curious. Have you actually ever read the Bible, or do you always have to make the simple truth into one of your bloviated arguments. Acts 3:19 - Repent therefore, and turn back, that your sins may be blotted out, Matthew 4:17 - From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” 2 Peter 3:9 - The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. Acts 2:38 - And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 2 Chronicles 7:14 - If my people who are called by my name humble themselves, and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and heal their land.Matthew 3:8 - Bear fruit in keeping with repentance. Acts 17:30 - The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent, Luke 13:3 - No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.1 John 1:9 - If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Now read those passages in context, and preferably considering the original language. Also consider the passages that seem to say something different such that you don’t fall into the trap of “eisegesis,” cherry-picking the text to confirm your pre-existing ideas. Also, is it possible for you to have a meaningful conversation without assuming the other person isn’t completely ignorant and without insulting them? Is that possible? Do you do this in every conversation? It just under the protection of online anonymity? By the way, we can take each of these passages in turn, but you've made a mistake in reading "repentance" as "asking for forgiveness." It doesn't mean that. At all. Again with the idiocy of a fool. Being repentant is necessary to obtain forgiveness. The Bible was written so a person could obtain the Grace of God without the necessity of having a college degree. Get over yourself.
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Post by Mercy for All on Feb 25, 2024 11:40:53 GMT
Now read those passages in context, and preferably considering the original language. Also consider the passages that seem to say something different such that you don’t fall into the trap of “eisegesis,” cherry-picking the text to confirm your pre-existing ideas. Also, is it possible for you to have a meaningful conversation without assuming the other person isn’t completely ignorant and without insulting them? Is that possible? Do you do this in every conversation? It just under the protection of online anonymity? By the way, we can take each of these passages in turn, but you've made a mistake in reading "repentance" as "asking for forgiveness." It doesn't mean that. At all. Again with the idiocy of a fool. Being repentant is necessary to obtain forgiveness. The Bible was written so a person could obtain the Grace of God without the necessity of having a college degree. Get over yourself. You just restated your premise. Those verses don’t say what you imply they say. Try again.
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bama beau
Legend
Fish will piss anywhere. They just live in water.
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Post by bama beau on Feb 28, 2024 6:31:34 GMT
Aren't you forgetting that most Christians can't get these nuances? Most Christians can, if they're willing to stop and have a meaningful conversation. Most Christians can if they don't cling dogmatically to beliefs that cannot be supported biblically. As for OldTrapper, at least he's trying to make a case for his position. I don't think it's a strong case, but he's not just "making crap up." I just think that in this case, the interpretation has been imposed on the text; it doesn't "emerge from the text." It's a conversation I'm willing to have. I hope he is. I talk to people without a college degree all the time. I've been to college. Having done so, I'm less impressed with the degrees than I used to be. Amen, brother.
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bama beau
Legend
Fish will piss anywhere. They just live in water.
Posts: 11,579
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Post by bama beau on Mar 4, 2024 6:56:21 GMT
I'm curious. Have you actually ever read the Bible, or do you always have to make the simple truth into one of your bloviated arguments. Acts 3:19 - Repent therefore, and turn back, that your sins may be blotted out, Matthew 4:17 - From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” 2 Peter 3:9 - The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. Acts 2:38 - And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 2 Chronicles 7:14 - If my people who are called by my name humble themselves, and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and heal their land.Matthew 3:8 - Bear fruit in keeping with repentance. Acts 17:30 - The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent, Luke 13:3 - No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.1 John 1:9 - If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Now read those passages in context, and preferably considering the original language. Also consider the passages that seem to say something different such that you don’t fall into the trap of “eisegesis,” cherry-picking the text to confirm your pre-existing ideas. Also, is it possible for you to have a meaningful conversation without assuming the other person isn’t completely ignorant and without insulting them? Is that possible? Do you do this in every conversation? It just under the protection of online anonymity? By the way, we can take each of these passages in turn, but you've made a mistake in reading "repentance" as "asking for forgiveness." It doesn't mean that. At all. What does repentance mean to you? To me it means if not admitting to error then at least to taking responsibility, no? Regardless, it is a turning away. One cannot escape damnation by claiming Christ and then continuing the same acts and attitudes. It doesn't work that way. The same behavior that a neophyte would be taught to blame on the Devil cannot now be the will of Christ.
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Post by Mercy for All on Mar 4, 2024 20:34:46 GMT
Now read those passages in context, and preferably considering the original language. Also consider the passages that seem to say something different such that you don’t fall into the trap of “eisegesis,” cherry-picking the text to confirm your pre-existing ideas. Also, is it possible for you to have a meaningful conversation without assuming the other person isn’t completely ignorant and without insulting them? Is that possible? Do you do this in every conversation? It just under the protection of online anonymity? By the way, we can take each of these passages in turn, but you've made a mistake in reading "repentance" as "asking for forgiveness." It doesn't mean that. At all. What does repentance mean to you? To me it means if not admitting to error then at least to taking responsibility, no? Regardless, it is a turning away. One cannot escape damnation by claiming Christ and then continuing the same acts and attitudes. It doesn't work that way. The same behavior that a neophyte would be taught to blame on the Devil cannot now be the will of Christ. It is literally and specifically "turning." Although we tend to associate it with certain feelings, it does not mean those feelings. It is associated by some with "asking forgiveness," but it is not asking forgiveness. There's a scene somewhere in Josephus, after Josephus has swung over and sided with the Romans, in which he comes across a band of freedom fighters (or brigands, or rebels, or loyalists) and advises them to "repent": to stop fighting against the powers that be and give their allegiance to Rome. That's a pretty good picture of what repentance is. That said, "one cannot escape damnation by claiming Christ and then continuing the same acts and attitudes. It doesn't work that way." Yes. It is "turning from the way you were and giving your allegiance to Christ"—all of you: aims, affections, attitudes, and attitudes. You might "feel sorry." You might not. How you feel is irrelevant. It's moving from rebellion and selfishness to allegiance, commitment, devotion, loyalty, obedience. And...you can't serve two masters. You can't serve both God and money. You can't serve both God and your country (although...to serve God first is to serve your country best). You can't serve both God and your political party. You can't even serve God and your family (although...to serve God first is to serve your family best). Etc. EDIT: It doesn't really matter what repentance means "to me." It matters what it means. We can share opinions about what it means, but one (or both) of us might be wrong. What matters is what it means.
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bama beau
Legend
Fish will piss anywhere. They just live in water.
Posts: 11,579
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Post by bama beau on Mar 5, 2024 6:28:30 GMT
What does repentance mean to you? To me it means if not admitting to error then at least to taking responsibility, no? Regardless, it is a turning away. One cannot escape damnation by claiming Christ and then continuing the same acts and attitudes. It doesn't work that way. The same behavior that a neophyte would be taught to blame on the Devil cannot now be the will of Christ. It is literally and specifically "turning." Although we tend to associate it with certain feelings, it does not mean those feelings. It is associated by some with "asking forgiveness," but it is not asking forgiveness. There's a scene somewhere in Josephus, after Josephus has swung over and sided with the Romans, in which he comes across a band of freedom fighters (or brigands, or rebels, or loyalists) and advises them to "repent": to stop fighting against the powers that be and give their allegiance to Rome. That's a pretty good picture of what repentance is. That said, "one cannot escape damnation by claiming Christ and then continuing the same acts and attitudes. It doesn't work that way." Yes. It is "turning from the way you were and giving your allegiance to Christ"—all of you: aims, affections, attitudes, and attitudes. You might "feel sorry." You might not. How you feel is irrelevant. It's moving from rebellion and selfishness to allegiance, commitment, devotion, loyalty, obedience. And...you can't serve two masters. You can't serve both God and money. You can't serve both God and your country (although...to serve God first is to serve your country best). You can't serve both God and your political party. You can't even serve God and your family (although...to serve God first is to serve your family best). Etc. EDIT: It doesn't really matter what repentance means "to me." It matters what it means. We can share opinions about what it means, but one (or both) of us might be wrong. What matters is what it means. If what something means to you doesn't matter, then what something means to me also doesn't, which is beyond the realm of my comprehension. Look at you, the radical nihilist. Who knew?
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Post by Mercy for All on Mar 5, 2024 16:00:49 GMT
It is literally and specifically "turning." Although we tend to associate it with certain feelings, it does not mean those feelings. It is associated by some with "asking forgiveness," but it is not asking forgiveness. There's a scene somewhere in Josephus, after Josephus has swung over and sided with the Romans, in which he comes across a band of freedom fighters (or brigands, or rebels, or loyalists) and advises them to "repent": to stop fighting against the powers that be and give their allegiance to Rome. That's a pretty good picture of what repentance is. That said, "one cannot escape damnation by claiming Christ and then continuing the same acts and attitudes. It doesn't work that way." Yes. It is "turning from the way you were and giving your allegiance to Christ"—all of you: aims, affections, attitudes, and attitudes. You might "feel sorry." You might not. How you feel is irrelevant. It's moving from rebellion and selfishness to allegiance, commitment, devotion, loyalty, obedience. And...you can't serve two masters. You can't serve both God and money. You can't serve both God and your country (although...to serve God first is to serve your country best). You can't serve both God and your political party. You can't even serve God and your family (although...to serve God first is to serve your family best). Etc. EDIT: It doesn't really matter what repentance means "to me." It matters what it means. We can share opinions about what it means, but one (or both) of us might be wrong. What matters is what it means. If what something means to you doesn't matter, then what something means to me also doesn't, which is beyond the realm of my comprehension. Look at you, the radical nihilist. Who knew?The opposite. I’m saying “my opinion about something” doesn’t trump its inherent or generally accepted meaning.
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Post by freonbale on May 4, 2024 2:28:41 GMT
Forgiveness can only be granted if one repents. None have nor will they. Not quite true. Forgiveness has already been granted. Forgiveness makes reconciliation possible. Repentance is necessary for reconciliation (and everything that reconciliation brings). This question ONLY applies to the Christian version of G-d. There are thousands of other versions, and Mercy's is merely one on that long list. Freon
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Post by Mercy for All on May 4, 2024 2:40:46 GMT
Not quite true. Forgiveness has already been granted. Forgiveness makes reconciliation possible. Repentance is necessary for reconciliation (and everything that reconciliation brings). This question ONLY applies to the Christian version of G-d. There are thousands of other versions, and Mercy's is merely one on that long list. Freon Well, obviously. I’m obviously answering the question from my perspective and not on behalf on someone else’s belief system, like Sikhism, Buddhism, or Jainism. Does this actually need to be said? Um…let’s just remind everyone that freonbale’s response is only freonbale’s point of view! Just in case anyone missed that! Or…are you trying to be authoritative here?
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Post by freonbale on May 4, 2024 3:58:22 GMT
This question ONLY applies to the Christian version of G-d. There are thousands of other versions, and Mercy's is merely one on that long list. Freon Well, obviously. I’m obviously answering the question from my perspective and not on behalf on someone else’s belief system, like Sikhism, Buddhism, or Jainism. Does this actually need to be said? Um…let’s just remind everyone that freonbale’s response is only freonbale’s point of view! Just in case anyone missed that! Or…are you trying to be authoritative here? Well you created the thread, so you should have titled it, 'Is the Christian G-d's forgiveness, unconditional'. But really, it seems like the purpose of all the threads you started in here is to get a dialogue going about how Christianity works. It's an ad, not a genuine question about all the versions of G-d out there, and how they view your question. I'm just keeping things honest. Freon
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Post by DaveJavu on May 4, 2024 7:40:51 GMT
Forgiveness can only be granted if one repents. None have nor will they. Not quite true. Forgiveness has already been granted. Forgiveness makes reconciliation possible. Repentance is necessary for reconciliation (and everything that reconciliation brings). Of what good is forgiveness if it grants you nothing?
-I forgive you.
-So?
-Nothing, I just forgive you.
Who cares?
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Post by Mercy for All on May 4, 2024 12:22:11 GMT
Not quite true. Forgiveness has already been granted. Forgiveness makes reconciliation possible. Repentance is necessary for reconciliation (and everything that reconciliation brings). Of what good is forgiveness if it grants you nothing?
-I forgive you.
-So?
-Nothing, I just forgive you.
Who cares?
Forgiveness opens the door for reconciliation.
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Post by Mercy for All on May 4, 2024 12:26:19 GMT
Well, obviously. I’m obviously answering the question from my perspective and not on behalf on someone else’s belief system, like Sikhism, Buddhism, or Jainism. Does this actually need to be said? Um…let’s just remind everyone that freonbale’s response is only freonbale’s point of view! Just in case anyone missed that! Or…are you trying to be authoritative here? Well you created the thread, so you should have titled it, 'Is the Christian G-d's forgiveness, unconditional'. But really, it seems like the purpose of all the threads you started in here is to get a dialogue going about how Christianity works. It's an ad, not a genuine question about all the versions of G-d out there, and how they view your question. I'm just keeping things honest. Freon Thanks for being LNF police. At this point, if you'd read through the thread, it is an opportunity for conversation with Christians and non-Christians. Not all Christians believe that God's forgiveness is already effected. You know, in the original LNF iteration, there ended up being two boards...a Religion Forum and a Christian Forum, because some Christian posters were tired of every thread turning into an apologetic for the Bible or prayer or the historical existence of Jesus or whatever. I opposed the move, but my recommendation didn't amount to much. That's not the route I would want to go again. But you're being pretty nitpicky...it seems the solution would be to separate the boards again (a really bad move), have monumentally cumbersome thread titles, or trust in the intelligence of the posters to be able to figure it out. My preference is the last.
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Post by freonbale on May 4, 2024 16:34:51 GMT
Well you created the thread, so you should have titled it, 'Is the Christian G-d's forgiveness, unconditional'. But really, it seems like the purpose of all the threads you started in here is to get a dialogue going about how Christianity works. It's an ad, not a genuine question about all the versions of G-d out there, and how they view your question. I'm just keeping things honest. Freon Thanks for being LNF police. At this point, if you'd read through the thread, it is an opportunity for conversation with Christians and non-Christians. Not all Christians believe that God's forgiveness is already effected. You know, in the original LNF iteration, there ended up being two boards...a Religion Forum and a Christian Forum, because some Christian posters were tired of every thread turning into an apologetic for the Bible or prayer or the historical existence of Jesus or whatever. I opposed the move, but my recommendation didn't amount to much. That's not the route I would want to go again. But you're being pretty nitpicky...it seems the solution would be to separate the boards again (a really bad move), have monumentally cumbersome thread titles, or trust in the intelligence of the posters to be able to figure it out. My preference is the last. I've lived around devout Christians all my life (and non-devout as well), and they are trained from children to believe that their mission in life is to convert everyone else to their religion. That gets tiring too, Mercy, and you cannot escape that your religion does this. You don't see me trying to make you Jewish, do you? We actively DISSUADE people from joining our ranks. It is our behavior that is our advertising. Our values. You'd join if our values matched yours, but it's personal, and private. Freon
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Post by Mercy for All on May 4, 2024 16:37:29 GMT
Thanks for being LNF police. At this point, if you'd read through the thread, it is an opportunity for conversation with Christians and non-Christians. Not all Christians believe that God's forgiveness is already effected. You know, in the original LNF iteration, there ended up being two boards...a Religion Forum and a Christian Forum, because some Christian posters were tired of every thread turning into an apologetic for the Bible or prayer or the historical existence of Jesus or whatever. I opposed the move, but my recommendation didn't amount to much. That's not the route I would want to go again. But you're being pretty nitpicky...it seems the solution would be to separate the boards again (a really bad move), have monumentally cumbersome thread titles, or trust in the intelligence of the posters to be able to figure it out. My preference is the last. I've lived around devout Christians all my life (and non-devout as well), and they are trained from children to believe that their mission in life is to convert everyone else to their religion. That gets tiring too, Mercy, and you cannot escape that your religion does this. You don't see me trying to make you Jewish, do you? We actively DISSUADE people from joining our ranks. It is our behavior that is our advertising. Our values. You'd join if our values matched yours, but it's personal, and private. Freon Why do you keep telling me what I believe and do? There is a sharp contrast between my approach to you and your approach to me. I don't tell you what you believe. I ask. As for "data points," offer some. Show some evidence of when I have ever done this on this forum. You may enlist the help of others if you'd like, and I'd accept testimony of others as evidence. If you can't or won't, then shut up about it. As for the "personal and private," that's a a modern phenomenon, post-enlightenment. The result has been a cultural vacuum into which pseudo-religion has entered.
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