|
Post by Biggles on Dec 6, 2023 4:30:32 GMT
You do know that Muslims worship the same God you do, right, Cuck? It's not that simple. Christians consider worship of Jesus to be the worship of God. Because of that, I think a significant number of Muslims are going to disagree with you that they and we worship "the same god." They believe, after all, that we worship a non-divine human. Are you also going insult them and tell them they are wrong, that you understand Islam better than they? That Jesus of Nazareth and Allah are one and the same? We all acknowledge that the three Abrahamic religions have some common roots, but it that's not the same thing as saying we worship the same God. It's more nuanced than the black and white situation that you are describing. That could depend on the sect. Some Protestant sects consider Jesus to be the Son of God, not God Himself. There is a difference.
|
|
thor
Legend
Posts: 19,422
Member is Online
|
Post by thor on Dec 6, 2023 4:41:50 GMT
thor Does it not strike you as amusing that between the two of us, you are the one that is being dogmatic and stubbornly sticking to a black and white view of the situation at hand? And I am the one saying that your position is true in one sense, but false in another. I am the one saying that the view of the Muslim should be considered, while you discard it. I am the one saying that the issue is nuanced and complex. You are the one ignoring the glaring evidence of common sense which acknowledges that every mainstream Christian worships someone that every mainstream Muslim refuses to worship: Jesus of Nazareth. While some mainstream Christians might maintain that Muslims unknowingly worship Jesus because Jesus is God and "Allah" is another word for "God," no mainstream Muslim will agree to that. None of them. I'm willing to consider their view as well as the view that some Christians hold. Yet you are not. The Muslim gets no say in your view. He worships Jesus and that's it. It does not make sense to stick to your stubborn black-and-white view on this. You are still arguing doctrine, Maestro. Jews, Christians and Muslims ALL worship the same god. The rest is how they perceive that God.
|
|
thor
Legend
Posts: 19,422
Member is Online
|
Post by thor on Dec 6, 2023 4:43:53 GMT
It's not that simple. Christians consider worship of Jesus to be the worship of God. Because of that, I think a significant number of Muslims are going to disagree with you that they and we worship "the same god." They believe, after all, that we worship a non-divine human. Are you also going insult them and tell them they are wrong, that you understand Islam better than they? That Jesus of Nazareth and Allah are one and the same? We all acknowledge that the three Abrahamic religions have some common roots, but it that's not the same thing as saying we worship the same God. It's more nuanced than the black and white situation that you are describing. In many ways, Muslims are to Christians, what Christians are to Jews. As I have noted before: Judaism ----> Christianity ----> Islam.
|
|
thor
Legend
Posts: 19,422
Member is Online
|
Post by thor on Dec 6, 2023 4:44:37 GMT
It's not that simple. Christians consider worship of Jesus to be the worship of God. Because of that, I think a significant number of Muslims are going to disagree with you that they and we worship "the same god." They believe, after all, that we worship a non-divine human. Are you also going insult them and tell them they are wrong, that you understand Islam better than they? That Jesus of Nazareth and Allah are one and the same? We all acknowledge that the three Abrahamic religions have some common roots, but it that's not the same thing as saying we worship the same God. It's more nuanced than the black and white situation that you are describing. That could depend on the sect. Some Protestant sects consider Jesus to be the Son of God, not God Himself. There is a difference.Wars were fought over details like this.
|
|
|
Post by Maestro on Dec 6, 2023 10:57:24 GMT
thor Does it not strike you as amusing that between the two of us, you are the one that is being dogmatic and stubbornly sticking to a black and white view of the situation at hand? And I am the one saying that your position is true in one sense, but false in another. I am the one saying that the view of the Muslim should be considered, while you discard it. I am the one saying that the issue is nuanced and complex. You are the one ignoring the glaring evidence of common sense which acknowledges that every mainstream Christian worships someone that every mainstream Muslim refuses to worship: Jesus of Nazareth. While some mainstream Christians might maintain that Muslims unknowingly worship Jesus because Jesus is God and "Allah" is another word for "God," no mainstream Muslim will agree to that. None of them. I'm willing to consider their view as well as the view that some Christians hold. Yet you are not. The Muslim gets no say in your view. He worships Jesus and that's it. It does not make sense to stick to your stubborn black-and-white view on this. You are still arguing doctrine, Maestro. Jews, Christians and Muslims ALL worship the same god. The rest is how they perceive that God. I'm going to ask you to answer the following questions the way a sociologist would, without bias toward any faith or political persuasion: Do mainstream Muslims worship Jesus of Nazareth? Does mainstream Islam teach that Jesus is divine or that he is not? Does mainstream Islam teach that it is acceptable for its followers to purposefully and knowingly choose to worship Jesus of Nazareth?
|
|
|
Post by Maestro on Dec 6, 2023 13:02:04 GMT
I want to clarify something here to thor and anyone else paying attention to our discussion. This discussion more or less started when Thor told RWB that Christians and Muslims worship the same god. RWB responded with the argument that Muslims and Christians worship different gods because Muslims worship Allah and Allah is Satan. I responded to both Thor and RWB with different issues. My response to Thor was that his comment (we worship the same god) was incomplete, that it was true in one sense, but not in another and that it was too simplistic to accurately describe the situation. And since then, Thor has been arguing with me. But, I think the problem here is that Thor is arguing against RWB's position through me. But I am not making RWB's argument. If asked the question, "Do Christians and Muslims worship the same god and why?" RWB would say the following: 1.No. 2. Because Muslims worship Allah and Allah is a false god. I am not making that argument. My answer to the question is: 1. Yes and no. It is too complicated to be answered otherwise. 2. Because Christians worship Jesus of Nazareth and Muslims do not. And while many (but not all) mainstream Christians will argue that by worshipping Allah, Muslims are unknowingly worshipping Jesus, absolutely zero mainstream Muslims will agree with that statement. In other words, RWB is arguing that the issue is that Allah isn't God. I am not saying that. I am saying the issue is that Muslims believe that Jesus isn't God. But it seems to me that Thor is still arguing against RWB's position, not mine. This is because he keeps drawing connections between Allah and Judaism and Christianity. But I have not argued otherwise. And I haven't argued otherwise because my argument does not hinge on the identity of Allah, but on the opinion and practices of mainstream Muslims regarding the worship of Jesus. And I think that it is reasonable to take their opinions into account when discussing whom they do and do not worship. And if they maintain that they do not worship Jesus and their practices back up that assertion, then that should not be ignored. It is, in fact, patronizing and dehumanizing to do so. Having said that, as I said, I think Thor is arguing against RWB's position, not my actual position. So I do not think he is actually treating Muslims poorly, merely mistaking RWB's position for my own.
|
|
|
Post by DaveJavu on Dec 7, 2023 11:21:09 GMT
You are still arguing doctrine, Maestro. Jews, Christians and Muslims ALL worship the same god. The rest is how they perceive that God. I'm going to ask you to answer the following questions the way a sociologist would, without bias toward any faith or political persuasion: Do mainstream Muslims worship Jesus of Nazareth? Does mainstream Islam teach that Jesus is divine or that he is not? Does mainstream Islam teach that it is acceptable for its followers to purposefully and knowingly choose to worship Jesus of Nazareth? The Muslims believe that Jesus spoke the day of his birth, that's kinda extraordinary, don't you think? So they do believe he's someone special, even supernatural, just not quite the son of God.
|
|
thor
Legend
Posts: 19,422
Member is Online
|
Post by thor on Dec 7, 2023 12:45:25 GMT
I'm going to ask you to answer the following questions the way a sociologist would, without bias toward any faith or political persuasion: Do mainstream Muslims worship Jesus of Nazareth? Does mainstream Islam teach that Jesus is divine or that he is not? Does mainstream Islam teach that it is acceptable for its followers to purposefully and knowingly choose to worship Jesus of Nazareth? The Muslims believe that Jesus spoke the day of his birth, that's kinda extraordinary, don't you think? So they do believe he's someone special, even supernatural, just not quite the son of God. The interpreters I had in Iraq/Afghanistan generally referred to Jesus (Issa) as a 'miracle of God'.
|
|
thor
Legend
Posts: 19,422
Member is Online
|
Post by thor on Dec 7, 2023 12:46:52 GMT
You are still arguing doctrine, Maestro. Jews, Christians and Muslims ALL worship the same god. The rest is how they perceive that God. I'm going to ask you to answer the following questions the way a sociologist would, without bias toward any faith or political persuasion: Do mainstream Muslims worship Jesus of Nazareth? Does mainstream Islam teach that Jesus is divine or that he is not? Does mainstream Islam teach that it is acceptable for its followers to purposefully and knowingly choose to worship Jesus of Nazareth? This is somewhat odd. Are you new saying that Jews don't worship the same God too? All of those points are true for Jewish people as well. Oooops.
|
|
|
Post by Maestro on Dec 7, 2023 12:52:38 GMT
I'm going to ask you to answer the following questions the way a sociologist would, without bias toward any faith or political persuasion: Do mainstream Muslims worship Jesus of Nazareth? Does mainstream Islam teach that Jesus is divine or that he is not? Does mainstream Islam teach that it is acceptable for its followers to purposefully and knowingly choose to worship Jesus of Nazareth? This is somewhat odd. Are you new saying that Jews don't worship the same God too? All of those points are true for Jewish people as well. Oooops. Thor, When in our conversation have I stated categorically that Christians and Muslims do not worship the same god? Your question about Jews shows that you do not understand my point. "Oooops" indeed. You are arguing against RWB's point, not mine. Now I am asking you nicely to answer the questions you just quoted. Will you do so?
|
|
thor
Legend
Posts: 19,422
Member is Online
|
Post by thor on Dec 7, 2023 13:23:42 GMT
This is somewhat odd. Are you new saying that Jews don't worship the same God too? All of those points are true for Jewish people as well. Oooops. Thor, When in our conversation have I stated categorically that Christians and Muslims do not worship the same god? Your question about Jews shows that you do not understand my point. "Oooops" indeed. You are arguing against RWB's point, not mine. Now I am asking you nicely to answer the questions you just quoted. Will you do so? So you agree that Jews Christians and Muslims worship the same entity. OK.
|
|
|
Post by Maestro on Dec 7, 2023 13:35:41 GMT
Thor, When in our conversation have I stated categorically that Christians and Muslims do not worship the same god? Your question about Jews shows that you do not understand my point. "Oooops" indeed. You are arguing against RWB's point, not mine. Now I am asking you nicely to answer the questions you just quoted. Will you do so? So you agree that Jews Christians and Muslims worship the same entity. OK. Sigh... Thor, I know you like fighting with people. It doesn't interest me though. I am interested in having a conversation, the way rational adults would in a coffee shop. But as long as you keep trying to fight and not listen, that isn't possible. Which is too bad, because I think you and I could have an interesting conversation. But you keep choosing otherwise. You ignore what I say, refuse to answer my questions and misstate my position. I do not reply in kind. I keep trying to get you to converse with me, but I have no interest in butting my head against this wall any more. If you want to have an adult conversation instead of a petty argument, I'll happily, joyfully participate. If you are going to continue with this nonsense, you'll be doing it without me.
|
|
thor
Legend
Posts: 19,422
Member is Online
|
Post by thor on Dec 7, 2023 18:00:32 GMT
So you agree that Jews Christians and Muslims worship the same entity. OK. Sigh... Thor, I know you like fighting with people. It doesn't interest me though. I am interested in having a conversation, the way rational adults would in a coffee shop. But as long as you keep trying to fight and not listen, that isn't possible. Which is too bad, because I think you and I could have an interesting conversation. But you keep choosing otherwise. You ignore what I say, refuse to answer my questions and misstate my position. I do not reply in kind. I keep trying to get you to converse with me, but I have no interest in butting my head against this wall any more. If you want to have an adult conversation instead of a petty argument, I'll happily, joyfully participate. If you are going to continue with this nonsense, you'll be doing it without me. This issue here, Maestro, is that what I am saying is that Jews, Christians and Muslims all have the same roots, and is thus their God is the same entity, which is really all I say to RWB when he acts like a jackass. What I am getting from you (I will allow that I am misinterpreting what you are trying to say) is that because Christ is not divine in either Judaism or Islam, therefore it isn't the same entity. That position is more akin to a doctrinal dispute than anything else. Early Christians had huge rows concerning the nature of Christ, and some of that is in dispute even today. And again, that fact doesn't charge the truth of my position. I feel that you are arguing against a position I didn't take. All that said, I am comfortable letting you have the last word on this. It's a great day for fishin' anyway.
|
|
|
Post by Maestro on Dec 7, 2023 21:16:49 GMT
Sigh... Thor, I know you like fighting with people. It doesn't interest me though. I am interested in having a conversation, the way rational adults would in a coffee shop. But as long as you keep trying to fight and not listen, that isn't possible. Which is too bad, because I think you and I could have an interesting conversation. But you keep choosing otherwise. You ignore what I say, refuse to answer my questions and misstate my position. I do not reply in kind. I keep trying to get you to converse with me, but I have no interest in butting my head against this wall any more. If you want to have an adult conversation instead of a petty argument, I'll happily, joyfully participate. If you are going to continue with this nonsense, you'll be doing it without me. This issue here, Maestro, is that what I am saying is that Jews, Christians and Muslims all have the same roots, and is thus their God is the same entity, which is really all I say to RWB when he acts like a jackass. What I am getting from you (I will allow that I am misinterpreting what you are trying to say) is that because Christ is not divine in either Judaism or Islam, therefore it isn't the same entity. That position is more akin to a doctrinal dispute than anything else. Early Christians had huge rows concerning the nature of Christ, and some of that is in dispute even today. And again, that fact doesn't charge the truth of my position. I feel that you're are arguing against a position I didn't take. All that said, I am comfortable letting you have the last word on this. It's a great day for fishin' anyway. It's always a great day for fishin' But back to this issue, no, you aren't describing my position completely correctly. And I believe that part of the reason is that you have, for several posts now, either refused or neglected to answer my questions that you quoted earlier. If you would answer them, I would have a better basis for explaining my position more clearly. They are not trick questions, neither are they difficult. You have seen me post. We've had civil conversations. I am not going to leap on whatever your answer is and call you names or try to embarrass you. I genuinely want your responses so I can go further with this discussion without simply repeating the same things back and forth at each other. I am not trying to "win" anything here. I am trying to have a discussion, not a contest.
|
|