freonbale
Legend
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Posts: 19,791
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Post by freonbale on Nov 12, 2023 20:40:11 GMT
I've spent years explaining you to you, so I can safely, empirically, say that this is one topic I've addressed more thoroughly (with you), than any other. If you STILL do not get it, then we are at an impasse. I can only show you the door. You have to choose to walk through it. You have not made that choice. Freon I would not walk through a door that leads to internally contradictory views and significant departure from reality into a solipsistic world t your imagination. You can enjoy that by yourself. Yes, it would be painful for you. You would be retraining your neural pathways, which would physically be uncomfortable. This is no different than combating an addiction, and you WOULD be going through withdrawal. But like a drug addiction, the benefits when you succeed, far outweigh the damage you are doing, and the rationale you use to justify your current behavior. I ask you again, how would you KNOW you were talking to someone wiser than you? Because if you cannot tell, then you've made certain assumptions about yourself which defy reality. Freon
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Post by Mercy for All on Nov 12, 2023 23:23:49 GMT
I would not walk through a door that leads to internally contradictory views and significant departure from reality into a solipsistic world t your imagination. You can enjoy that by yourself. Yes, it would be painful for you. You would be retraining your neural pathways, which would physically be uncomfortable. This is no different than combating an addiction, and you WOULD be going through withdrawal. But like a drug addiction, the benefits when you succeed, far outweigh the damage you are doing, and the rationale you use to justify your current behavior. I ask you again, how would you KNOW you were talking to someone wiser than you? Because if you cannot tell, then you've made certain assumptions about yourself which defy reality. Freon Someone wiser than me would likely not be living in deliberate and willful ignorance and overt unresolved contradictions. You're welcome to bring clarification on these issues.
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freonbale
Legend
Stop telling me I'm awesome. I already know.
Posts: 19,791
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Post by freonbale on Nov 12, 2023 23:38:56 GMT
Yes, it would be painful for you. You would be retraining your neural pathways, which would physically be uncomfortable. This is no different than combating an addiction, and you WOULD be going through withdrawal. But like a drug addiction, the benefits when you succeed, far outweigh the damage you are doing, and the rationale you use to justify your current behavior. I ask you again, how would you KNOW you were talking to someone wiser than you? Because if you cannot tell, then you've made certain assumptions about yourself which defy reality. Freon Someone wiser than me would likely not be living in deliberate and willful ignorance and overt unresolved contradictions. You're welcome to bring clarification on these issues. Just because YOU do not understand something, does not make it a contradiction. But whatever, man. If this is all you ever are, or desire to be, and you can live your life Happy, then I am obligated to accept that as your right. But I CANNOT communicate with you as an equal, because you are not one. You're just another OldTrapper to me. Just another Petep. Addicted to your dogma, incapable of creative thoughts of your own, always deferring to your dogma when confronted with any type of reality that is challenging to understand. If you cited ALL the dogmas out there, and not just your own, I would at least know you are TRYING to see the world for what it is, instead of one opinion of it. But you don't. Freon
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Post by Mercy for All on Nov 13, 2023 1:44:19 GMT
Someone wiser than me would likely not be living in deliberate and willful ignorance and overt unresolved contradictions. You're welcome to bring clarification on these issues. Just because YOU do not understand something, does not make it a contradiction. But whatever, man. If this is all you ever are, or desire to be, and you can live your life Happy, then I am obligated to accept that as your right. But I CANNOT communicate with you as an equal, because you are not one. You're just another OldTrapper to me. Just another Petep. Addicted to your dogma, incapable of creative thoughts of your own, always deferring to your dogma when confronted with any type of reality that is challenging to understand. If you cited ALL the dogmas out there, and not just your own, I would at least know you are TRYING to see the world for what it is, instead of one opinion of it. But you don't. Freon No...what you have claimed is a direct and demonstrable contradiction. No "dogma" here. Why do you keep on bringing up "dogma" when it's not relevant? Do you know what "dogma" means? Here's your contradiction: 1) My religious tradition is fundamentalist. 2) Fundamentalists repress women. Both those things cannot be true, because my tradition was especially empowering towards women—more so, actually, than was commonly accepted in culture at the time. I don't deny that fundamentalists repress women. I am not a fundamentalist. Of course, that's another term you throw around casually (and likely use it with a particularly idiosyncratic definition, as is your modus operandi). Tell me...what do you actually mean by that?
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Post by jasmine on Nov 13, 2023 1:49:05 GMT
I would not walk through a door that leads to internally contradictory views and significant departure from reality into a solipsistic world t your imagination. You can enjoy that by yourself. Wow.
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freonbale
Legend
Stop telling me I'm awesome. I already know.
Posts: 19,791
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Post by freonbale on Nov 13, 2023 4:28:24 GMT
Just because YOU do not understand something, does not make it a contradiction. But whatever, man. If this is all you ever are, or desire to be, and you can live your life Happy, then I am obligated to accept that as your right. But I CANNOT communicate with you as an equal, because you are not one. You're just another OldTrapper to me. Just another Petep. Addicted to your dogma, incapable of creative thoughts of your own, always deferring to your dogma when confronted with any type of reality that is challenging to understand. If you cited ALL the dogmas out there, and not just your own, I would at least know you are TRYING to see the world for what it is, instead of one opinion of it. But you don't. Freon No...what you have claimed is a direct and demonstrable contradiction. No "dogma" here. Why do you keep on bringing up "dogma" when it's not relevant? Do you know what "dogma" means? Here's your contradiction: 1) My religious tradition is fundamentalist. 2) Fundamentalists repress women. Both those things cannot be true, because my tradition was especially empowering towards women—more so, actually, than was commonly accepted in culture at the time. I don't deny that fundamentalists repress women. I am not a fundamentalist. Of course, that's another term you throw around casually (and likely use it with a particularly idiosyncratic definition, as is your modus operandi). Tell me...what do you actually mean by that? Religious tradition? Dude, I know you don't take the Bible literally. And I know that's how you define fundamentalist. But you hold the same outlook and views as those who do, so it turns out not to matter HOW you became that way, and I'm only interested in the part that effects how you make decisions and vote. Abortion? Check. Vouchers? Check. Tax Exemption for Religious Schools? Check. Religion Integrated into Government? Check. These are the views of the far right, who (ironically) are not fundamentalists either, though they think they are. Now if we look at the history of your religion, it has huge misogyny in it. It has rape. Incest. Polygamy. Baby killing. Female ownership. It's sick. And you can't just ignore the parts of your religion that don't fit your view of yourself. All that horrible history made it possible for your religion to survive until now, so that you can be a part of it. If those babies weren't killed, they may have risen up and destroyed your religion. You OWE those sinners a debt of gratitude for making it possible for you to be a Christian today. Now you can be honest about all that, accept it, and atone for their sins by trying to live by the 'good' ideals you feel are the foundation of the religion. Or, you can be like you, saying you weren't the ones who did those things, and you're super swell now, and your version of Christianity is the 'right' one, and accept no responsibility, and delude yourself into believing that history will never repeat itself. And then it will. Those ACTUAL fundamentalists, are as much Christians as you are. From where I sit, there is no difference between you and them. Freon
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Odysseus
Legend
Trump=Chump
Posts: 39,224
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Post by Odysseus on Nov 13, 2023 9:05:43 GMT
I cannot quite grasp what this argument over religion has to do with Amelia Earhart.
Perhaps someone can explain it to me?
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Post by Mercy for All on Nov 14, 2023 21:23:08 GMT
No...what you have claimed is a direct and demonstrable contradiction. No "dogma" here. Why do you keep on bringing up "dogma" when it's not relevant? Do you know what "dogma" means? Here's your contradiction: 1) My religious tradition is fundamentalist. 2) Fundamentalists repress women. Both those things cannot be true, because my tradition was especially empowering towards women—more so, actually, than was commonly accepted in culture at the time. I don't deny that fundamentalists repress women. I am not a fundamentalist. Of course, that's another term you throw around casually (and likely use it with a particularly idiosyncratic definition, as is your modus operandi). Tell me...what do you actually mean by that? Religious tradition? Dude, I know you don't take the Bible literally. And I know that's how you define fundamentalist. But you hold the same outlook and views as those who do, so it turns out not to matter HOW you became that way, and I'm only interested in the part that effects how you make decisions and vote. Abortion? Check. Vouchers? Check. Tax Exemption for Religious Schools? Check. Religion Integrated into Government? Check. These are the views of the far right, who (ironically) are not fundamentalists either, though they think they are. Now if we look at the history of your religion, it has huge misogyny in it. It has rape. Incest. Polygamy. Baby killing. Female ownership. It's sick. And you can't just ignore the parts of your religion that don't fit your view of yourself. All that horrible history made it possible for your religion to survive until now, so that you can be a part of it. If those babies weren't killed, they may have risen up and destroyed your religion. You OWE those sinners a debt of gratitude for making it possible for you to be a Christian today. Now you can be honest about all that, accept it, and atone for their sins by trying to live by the 'good' ideals you feel are the foundation of the religion. Or, you can be like you, saying you weren't the ones who did those things, and you're super swell now, and your version of Christianity is the 'right' one, and accept no responsibility, and delude yourself into believing that history will never repeat itself. And then it will. Those ACTUAL fundamentalists, are as much Christians as you are. From where I sit, there is no difference between you and them. Freon Thanks, this is really helpful. Maybe one of the most helpful posts you've submitted. Here's what I have learned: 1) Your primary categorization of people is political. That's incredibly shallow and one-dimensional, but you do you, dude. 2) You have never really posted to "me" as a person. You are posting to an imaginary person which is the shadow side of yourself—everything you fear about yourself you project on to me. No wonder you're always wrong about my motives, thoughts, and opinions. Because none of them are mine. They are a mirror of your dark self. 3) I know you claim to be conservative (like some kind of "good kind" of conservative), but all of the worst stereotypes of conservatism are being demonstrated by you here, namely, the "othering" of whatever is different from you. What you perceive as "different from yourself" you magnify through exaggeration and misrepresentation in order to alienate your ersatz opponent. That approach, taken to its logical extreme, would lead to further alienation, ostracism, and expulsion from society as "deluded, deviant, and dangerous"—an approach which is exactly the worst part of the extreme stereotype of conservatism (the "far-right," if you will). What you accuse me of is what you are.
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freonbale
Legend
Stop telling me I'm awesome. I already know.
Posts: 19,791
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Post by freonbale on Nov 14, 2023 22:19:50 GMT
Religious tradition? Dude, I know you don't take the Bible literally. And I know that's how you define fundamentalist. But you hold the same outlook and views as those who do, so it turns out not to matter HOW you became that way, and I'm only interested in the part that effects how you make decisions and vote. Abortion? Check. Vouchers? Check. Tax Exemption for Religious Schools? Check. Religion Integrated into Government? Check. These are the views of the far right, who (ironically) are not fundamentalists either, though they think they are. Now if we look at the history of your religion, it has huge misogyny in it. It has rape. Incest. Polygamy. Baby killing. Female ownership. It's sick. And you can't just ignore the parts of your religion that don't fit your view of yourself. All that horrible history made it possible for your religion to survive until now, so that you can be a part of it. If those babies weren't killed, they may have risen up and destroyed your religion. You OWE those sinners a debt of gratitude for making it possible for you to be a Christian today. Now you can be honest about all that, accept it, and atone for their sins by trying to live by the 'good' ideals you feel are the foundation of the religion. Or, you can be like you, saying you weren't the ones who did those things, and you're super swell now, and your version of Christianity is the 'right' one, and accept no responsibility, and delude yourself into believing that history will never repeat itself. And then it will. Those ACTUAL fundamentalists, are as much Christians as you are. From where I sit, there is no difference between you and them. Freon Thanks, this is really helpful. Maybe one of the most helpful posts you've submitted. Here's what I have learned: 1) Your primary categorization of people is political. That's incredibly shallow and one-dimensional, but you do you, dude. 2) You have never really posted to "me" as a person. You are posting to an imaginary person which is the shadow side of yourself—everything you fear about yourself you project on to me. No wonder you're always wrong about my motives, thoughts, and opinions. Because none of them are mine. They are a mirror of your dark self. 3) I know you claim to be conservative (like some kind of "good kind" of conservative), but all of the worst stereotypes of conservatism are being demonstrated by you here, namely, the "othering" of whatever is different from you. What you perceive as "different from yourself" you magnify through exaggeration and misrepresentation in order to alienate your ersatz opponent. That approach, taken to its logical extreme, would lead to further alienation, ostracism, and expulsion from society as "deluded, deviant, and dangerous"—an approach which is exactly the worst part of the extreme stereotype of conservatism (the "far-right," if you will). What you accuse me of is what you are. What I find most interesting about your response, is not a single denial. You are EXACTLY as I've described you. Not bad, for someone you say gets it completely wrong about you. Freon
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Post by Mercy for All on Nov 15, 2023 2:21:26 GMT
Thanks, this is really helpful. Maybe one of the most helpful posts you've submitted. Here's what I have learned: 1) Your primary categorization of people is political. That's incredibly shallow and one-dimensional, but you do you, dude. 2) You have never really posted to "me" as a person. You are posting to an imaginary person which is the shadow side of yourself—everything you fear about yourself you project on to me. No wonder you're always wrong about my motives, thoughts, and opinions. Because none of them are mine. They are a mirror of your dark self. 3) I know you claim to be conservative (like some kind of "good kind" of conservative), but all of the worst stereotypes of conservatism are being demonstrated by you here, namely, the "othering" of whatever is different from you. What you perceive as "different from yourself" you magnify through exaggeration and misrepresentation in order to alienate your ersatz opponent. That approach, taken to its logical extreme, would lead to further alienation, ostracism, and expulsion from society as "deluded, deviant, and dangerous"—an approach which is exactly the worst part of the extreme stereotype of conservatism (the "far-right," if you will). What you accuse me of is what you are. What I find most interesting about your response, is not a single denial. You are EXACTLY as I've described you. Not bad, for someone you say gets it completely wrong about you. Freon Now read your response in light of my response. You are exactly how you have described me. What you missed in your response is "...you are always wrong about my motives, thoughts, and opinions." Despite the minimal relevance of...well, anything really important, you are wrong about "how I would vote on certain issues." Again, no surprise. Because you're not really talking to me. You're using me as a placeholder for all your fears.
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freonbale
Legend
Stop telling me I'm awesome. I already know.
Posts: 19,791
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Post by freonbale on Nov 15, 2023 3:34:40 GMT
What I find most interesting about your response, is not a single denial. You are EXACTLY as I've described you. Not bad, for someone you say gets it completely wrong about you. Freon Now read your response in light of my response. You are exactly how you have described me. What you missed in your response is "...you are always wrong about my motives, thoughts, and opinions." Despite the minimal relevance...well, anything really important, you are wrong about "how I would vote on certain issues." Again, no surprise. Because you're not really talking to me. You're using me as a placeholder for all your fears. If that's what you need to tell yourself to compensate for your complete transparency, then I understand. Freon
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Post by Mercy for All on Nov 15, 2023 12:48:39 GMT
Now read your response in light of my response. You are exactly how you have described me. What you missed in your response is "...you are always wrong about my motives, thoughts, and opinions." Despite the minimal relevance...well, anything really important, you are wrong about "how I would vote on certain issues." Again, no surprise. Because you're not really talking to me. You're using me as a placeholder for all your fears. If that's what you need to tell yourself to compensate for your complete transparency, then I understand. Freon Reread your post. Is that what you meant to say?
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freonbale
Legend
Stop telling me I'm awesome. I already know.
Posts: 19,791
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Post by freonbale on Nov 15, 2023 14:58:45 GMT
If that's what you need to tell yourself to compensate for your complete transparency, then I understand. Freon Reread your post. Is that what you meant to say? I know you feel you've made some profound point, Mercy, but this conversation is actually identical to all our others. Your goals in it are identical, and I still will not see you as an equal. You are far right, in every way that is meaningful, and that makes you part of the problem. Freon
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Post by Mercy for All on Nov 15, 2023 15:00:22 GMT
Reread your post. Is that what you meant to say? I know you feel you've made some profound point, Mercy, but this conversation is actually identical to all our others. Your goals in it are identical, and I still will not see you as an equal. You are far right, in every way that is meaningful, and that makes you part of the problem. Freon You just confirmed what I said a couple of posts ago. You're not "talking to me." You're talking to a projection of yourself. If you ever want to actually talk to me, let me know.
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freonbale
Legend
Stop telling me I'm awesome. I already know.
Posts: 19,791
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Post by freonbale on Nov 15, 2023 15:05:18 GMT
I know you feel you've made some profound point, Mercy, but this conversation is actually identical to all our others. Your goals in it are identical, and I still will not see you as an equal. You are far right, in every way that is meaningful, and that makes you part of the problem. Freon You just confirmed what I said a couple of posts ago. You're not "talking to me." You're talking to a projection of yourself. If you ever want to actually talk to me, let me know. And I've told you, I cannot have a serious conversation with someone so completely ignorant of themselves. Freon
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Post by Mercy for All on Nov 15, 2023 18:29:19 GMT
You just confirmed what I said a couple of posts ago. You're not "talking to me." You're talking to a projection of yourself. If you ever want to actually talk to me, let me know. And I've told you, I cannot have a serious conversation with someone so completely ignorant of themselves. Freon Just look in a mirror and start talking.
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freonbale
Legend
Stop telling me I'm awesome. I already know.
Posts: 19,791
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Post by freonbale on Nov 15, 2023 18:39:50 GMT
And I've told you, I cannot have a serious conversation with someone so completely ignorant of themselves. Freon Just look in a mirror and start talking. Did you read what you just wrote? You just complimented me, and I'm pretty sure you did not intend that. What you meant to say is, 'Then you likely don't talk to yourself much'. Now you understand why I cannot have a serious convo with you. We're really at very different levels. Freon
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Post by Mercy for All on Nov 15, 2023 19:35:50 GMT
Just look in a mirror and start talking. Did you read what you just wrote? You just complimented me, and I'm pretty sure you did not intend that. What you meant to say is, 'Then you likely don't talk to yourself much'. Now you understand why I cannot have a serious convo with you. We're really at very different levels. Freon Naw, you're still missing the point. You project your darkest fears, feelings, and opinions on me...maybe to make it more manageable. Skip the middle man. Just talk to yourself. If you actually want to talk to me (and not your own projection), let me know.
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Odysseus
Legend
Trump=Chump
Posts: 39,224
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Post by Odysseus on Nov 15, 2023 20:10:55 GMT
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freonbale
Legend
Stop telling me I'm awesome. I already know.
Posts: 19,791
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Post by freonbale on Nov 15, 2023 22:18:32 GMT
Did you read what you just wrote? You just complimented me, and I'm pretty sure you did not intend that. What you meant to say is, 'Then you likely don't talk to yourself much'. Now you understand why I cannot have a serious convo with you. We're really at very different levels. Freon Naw, you're still missing the point. You project your darkest fears, feelings, and opinions on me...maybe to make it more manageable. Skip the middle man. Just talk to yourself. If you actually want to talk to me (and not your own projection), let me know. This is good, Mercy. You are taking my own appraisal of you, reversing it, and directing it at me. It shows that at a basic level, you can pivot your strategy. But the difference is that I am not simply trying to harm you with words, as you attempted two posts ago. I am ACTUALLY confident that you do not know yourself at all. And while this pivot is a step in the right direction for you (and confirms my opinion that of all the far righties in here, you have the most potential to escape your bubble), we are still vast distances apart. I would LOVE to talk to you. I know you're in there somewhere. I hear you come out, every once in awhile, but then your dogma takes over, and your creativity and curiosity are stifled once again. When you stop believing your dogma has all the answers, you will be open to learning, and we can communicate as equals. Freon
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