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Post by jasmine on Mar 24, 2023 18:05:31 GMT
How do you define the American Dream? Francis Schaeffer described the values of our culture as affluence and personal peace (where “personal peace” is the ability to insulate ourselves from the pain and tragedies of the world). I think he was on to something. The American Dream is the pursuit of autonomous freedom facilitated by money. I’m not so sure about that. To me, the American Dream is about having the freedom and opportunity to reach your own life goals. Not everyone has the need or desire to be super rich or to attain power. I know that was never my dream. Then again, I realize I might not be the best example. |
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Post by Mercy for All on Mar 24, 2023 18:41:44 GMT
Francis Schaeffer described the values of our culture as affluence and personal peace (where “personal peace” is the ability to insulate ourselves from the pain and tragedies of the world). I think he was on to something. The American Dream is the pursuit of autonomous freedom facilitated by money. I’m not so sure about that. To me, the American Dream is about having the freedom and opportunity to reach your own life goals. Not everyone has the need or desire to be super rich or to attain power. I know that was never my dream. Then again, I realize I might not be the best example. “Your own life goals.” |
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Post by jasmine on Mar 24, 2023 18:47:03 GMT
I’m not so sure about that. To me, the American Dream is about having the freedom and opportunity to reach your own life goals. Not everyone has the need or desire to be super rich or to attain power. I know that was never my dream. Then again, I realize I might not be the best example. “Your own life goals.” |
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Post by Monster Man on Mar 24, 2023 19:10:23 GMT
I’m not so sure about that. To me, the American Dream is about having the freedom and opportunity to reach your own life goals. Not everyone has the need or desire to be super rich or to attain power. I know that was never my dream. Then again, I realize I might not be the best example. “Your own life goals.” Yeah, things like, sending my kids to college. Is that bad or wrong if you are a Christian to have goals? |
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Post by Mercy for All on Mar 24, 2023 19:40:54 GMT
Yeah, things like, sending my kids to college. Is that bad or wrong if you are a Christian to have goals? No. Having goals is different from "your own life goals." Now if you're going to tell me that your goals are primarily determined by the example of Jesus and the leading of the Holy Spirit, then fine. But I don't think that's what people mean when they say "my own life goals." Again, Schaeffer's descriptions of the basic values of our culture: affluence and personal peace. A home. A nice car (or at least, a reliable car). A good education (why? So I can get a "good job"—what does that mean? Something which will pay and which I will find fulfilling). Not only is that a far cry from "if you follow me you must pick up your cross," but it also... doesn't work. It promises fulfillment it does not deliver. Half the time, the mid-life crisis is caused by middle-aged men not having accomplished their dreams. The other half of the time, the mid-life crisis is caused by middle-aged men having accomplished their dreams. |
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Post by Mercy for All on Mar 24, 2023 19:46:05 GMT
There are also other basic assumptions that we take for granted in our culture that are neither universal nor particularly "Christian":
Individualism is good.
Democracy is ideal.
Progress is good (and probably inevitable).
None of those things are inherently bad, but as basic foundational assumptions, they colour the way we read scripture, assess other individuals, evaluate the world we live in, inform our goals, etc.
Case in point (I don't know if I've brought this up on LNF before):
Why was the prodigal son starving?
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Post by Monster Man on Mar 24, 2023 20:11:22 GMT
Yeah, things like, sending my kids to college. Is that bad or wrong if you are a Christian to have goals? No. Having goals is different from "your own life goals." Now if you're going to tell me that your goals are primarily determined by the example of Jesus and the leading of the Holy Spirit, then fine. But I don't think that's what people mean when they say "my own life goals." Again, Schaeffer's descriptions of the basic values of our culture: affluence and personal peace. A home. A nice car (or at least, a reliable car). A good education (why? So I can get a "good job"—what does that mean? Something which will pay and which I will find fulfilling). Not only is that a far cry from "if you follow me you must pick up your cross," but it also... doesn't work. It promises fulfillment it does not deliver. Half the time, the mid-life crisis is caused by middle-aged men not having accomplished their dreams. The other half of the time, the mid-life crisis is caused by middle-aged men having accomplished their dreams. I am not following the semantics here, where having goals is different from your own life goals. Are you saying Christians shouldn't have homes, cars, or education? |
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Post by Monster Man on Mar 24, 2023 20:21:59 GMT
There are also other basic assumptions that we take for granted in our culture that are neither universal nor particularly "Christian": Individualism is good. Democracy is ideal. Progress is good (and probably inevitable). None of those things are inherently bad, but as basic foundational assumptions, they colour the way we read scripture, assess other individuals, evaluate the world we live in, inform our goals, etc. Case in point (I don't know if I've brought this up on LNF before): Why was the prodigal son starving? Well... there is a huge difference in individualism in your Christian life in your church AND what you think makes for good governance in the system of governance you are a part of with government. Democracy... is ideal or not ideal how? I think you are conflating things here between what makes for a good government and what might make for a good church structure. Not following why progress is counter to being Christian or what you mean here by progress. Well, as the story goes, he was pretty much out squandering his money away partying... he had nothing left and no where else to go but back home. |
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Post by Mercy for All on Mar 25, 2023 1:42:45 GMT
No. Having goals is different from "your own life goals." Now if you're going to tell me that your goals are primarily determined by the example of Jesus and the leading of the Holy Spirit, then fine. But I don't think that's what people mean when they say "my own life goals." Again, Schaeffer's descriptions of the basic values of our culture: affluence and personal peace. A home. A nice car (or at least, a reliable car). A good education (why? So I can get a "good job"—what does that mean? Something which will pay and which I will find fulfilling). Not only is that a far cry from "if you follow me you must pick up your cross," but it also... doesn't work. It promises fulfillment it does not deliver. Half the time, the mid-life crisis is caused by middle-aged men not having accomplished their dreams. The other half of the time, the mid-life crisis is caused by middle-aged men having accomplished their dreams. I am not following the semantics here, where having goals is different from your own life goals. Are you saying Christians shouldn't have homes, cars, or education? No, I'm saying that as a Christian, the goals are subjected to Jesus as Lord. He's not just Lord, he's my Lord. So my goals should be subjected to his agenda. If our goals are indistinguishable from the goals of everyone else in our culture, there's probably something wrong. |
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Post by Mercy for All on Mar 25, 2023 1:45:08 GMT
There are also other basic assumptions that we take for granted in our culture that are neither universal nor particularly "Christian": Individualism is good. Democracy is ideal. Progress is good (and probably inevitable). None of those things are inherently bad, but as basic foundational assumptions, they colour the way we read scripture, assess other individuals, evaluate the world we live in, inform our goals, etc. Case in point (I don't know if I've brought this up on LNF before): Why was the prodigal son starving? Well... there is a huge difference in individualism in your Christian life in your church AND what you think makes for good governance in the system of governance you are a part of with government. Democracy... is ideal or not ideal how? I think you are conflating things here between what makes for a good government and what might make for a good church structure. There is one clear example of democracy in the Bible...and they chose Barabbas. I specifically did not say that it is counter to being a Christian. But it is distinctly a western value (arguably a result of Christianity, but not inherently "Christian"). People from other culture might say that he was starving because he left his family, or because there was a famine, or because nobody gave him something to eat. |
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Post by Monster Man on Mar 25, 2023 2:45:24 GMT
Well... there is a huge difference in individualism in your Christian life in your church AND what you think makes for good governance in the system of governance you are a part of with government. Democracy... is ideal or not ideal how? I think you are conflating things here between what makes for a good government and what might make for a good church structure. There is one clear example of democracy in the Bible...and they chose Barabbas. I specifically did not say that it is counter to being a Christian. But it is distinctly a western value (arguably a result of Christianity, but not inherently "Christian"). People from other culture might say that he was starving because he left his family, or because there was a famine, or because nobody gave him something to eat. Um, no, that is not a clear form of Democracy at all. It is mob rule allowed by dictator in a very limited capacity. Even so... what is your point? Are you trying to take that verse to build a Christian doctrine against Democracy? Usually people use "not Christian" to mean, counter to being a Christian. If that was not what you were saying, OK, my misunderstanding. Well, regardless of what people say... we are talking about what the scripture says, no? |
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Post by Mercy for All on Mar 25, 2023 14:26:33 GMT
There is one clear example of democracy in the Bible...and they chose Barabbas. I specifically did not say that it is counter to being a Christian. But it is distinctly a western value (arguably a result of Christianity, but not inherently "Christian"). People from other culture might say that he was starving because he left his family, or because there was a famine, or because nobody gave him something to eat. Um, no, that is not a clear form of Democracy at all. It is mob rule allowed by dictator in a very limited capacity. Even so... what is your point? Are you trying to take that verse to build a Christian doctrine against Democracy? Usually people use "not Christian" to mean, counter to being a Christian. If that was not what you were saying, OK, my misunderstanding. Well, regardless of what people say... we are talking about what the scripture says, no? I’m saying that what we take for granted as legitimate and true we inevitably equate with Christianity or “the Christian way.” But it’s not. It’s the “western way.” K, so take a gander at Luke 15:11-32. Every single one of those reasons is mentioned. Why don’t we see them? |
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Post by Monster Man on Mar 25, 2023 22:33:37 GMT
Um, no, that is not a clear form of Democracy at all. It is mob rule allowed by dictator in a very limited capacity. Even so... what is your point? Are you trying to take that verse to build a Christian doctrine against Democracy? Usually people use "not Christian" to mean, counter to being a Christian. If that was not what you were saying, OK, my misunderstanding. Well, regardless of what people say... we are talking about what the scripture says, no? I’m saying that what we take for granted as legitimate and true we inevitably equate with Christianity or “the Christian way.” But it’s not. It’s the “western way.” K, so take a gander at Luke 15:11-32. Every single one of those reasons is mentioned. Why don’t we see them? I can agree there. As I said before, the issue with the language is that folks usually term something as not Christian as being wrong, that Christians should not do it. If you are just saying that Christianity doesn't necessarily = Democracy, in that Christians must support a Democracy, then yeah, I totally agree. I know those other thins are mentioned in the parable... but in totality of what the parable meant, I am not sure I understand what your point is here. I mean, sure there was famine, but had he not squandered his inheritance away as he did... the presumption here is that he would have survived it. Had he not squandered it away as he did... he would not have had to indenture himself to another to still end of starving. |
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Post by Mercy for All on Mar 25, 2023 23:42:56 GMT
I’m saying that what we take for granted as legitimate and true we inevitably equate with Christianity or “the Christian way.” But it’s not. It’s the “western way.” K, so take a gander at Luke 15:11-32. Every single one of those reasons is mentioned. Why don’t we see them? I can agree there. As I said before, the issue with the language is that folks usually term something as not Christian as being wrong, that Christians should not do it. If you are just saying that Christianity doesn't necessarily = Democracy, in that Christians must support a Democracy, then yeah, I totally agree. I know those other thins are mentioned in the parable... but in totality of what the parable meant, I am not sure I understand what your point is here. I mean, sure there was famine, but had he not squandered his inheritance away as he did... the presumption here is that he would have survived it. Had he not squandered it away as he did... he would not have had to indenture himself to another to still end of starving. The most direct reason given in the text: “He longed to fill his stomach with the pods that the pigs were eating, but no one gave him anything.” - Luke 15:16 |
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bama beau
Legend
Fish will piss anywhere. They just live in water.
Posts: 11,579
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Post by bama beau on Mar 26, 2023 6:15:33 GMT
Judgment begins in the house of God (1 Peter 4:17). Not that churches are ever perfect, but the need is for God to illuminate what needs to be corrected internally before speaking prophetically about cultural issues. Which can't happen if cultural agendas obscure God's agendas. Someone once said, if our Sunday morning message would be exactly the same whether or not biblical text is included, then it's not a biblical message; it's a cultural message. I just wonder how that can happen. There are churches that go against the Word of God, and I doubt they even recognize the need for correction. Two opposite extremes, as examples: That Westbrook church that preaches hatred for gays, and churches that embrace homosexuality and even have openly gay pastors. Homosexuals. You hate to love them. You love to hate them. Wouldn't be worse if they were Jews. |
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Post by jasmine on Mar 26, 2023 6:24:35 GMT
I just wonder how that can happen. There are churches that go against the Word of God, and I doubt they even recognize the need for correction. Two opposite extremes, as examples: That Westbrook church that preaches hatred for gays, and churches that embrace homosexuality and even have openly gay pastors. Homosexuals. You hate to love them. You love to hate them. Wouldn't be worse if they were Jews.Whatever you say, Bama. |
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Post by Monster Man on Mar 26, 2023 16:57:34 GMT
I can agree there. As I said before, the issue with the language is that folks usually term something as not Christian as being wrong, that Christians should not do it. If you are just saying that Christianity doesn't necessarily = Democracy, in that Christians must support a Democracy, then yeah, I totally agree. I know those other thins are mentioned in the parable... but in totality of what the parable meant, I am not sure I understand what your point is here. I mean, sure there was famine, but had he not squandered his inheritance away as he did... the presumption here is that he would have survived it. Had he not squandered it away as he did... he would not have had to indenture himself to another to still end of starving. The most direct reason given in the text: “He longed to fill his stomach with the pods that the pigs were eating, but no one gave him anything.” - Luke 15:16 And why? "And not many days later, the younger son gathered everything together and went on a journey to a distant country, and there he squandered his estate in wild living. Now when he had spent everything" - Luke 15:13-14 |
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Post by Mercy for All on Mar 27, 2023 3:36:09 GMT
The most direct reason given in the text: “He longed to fill his stomach with the pods that the pigs were eating, but no one gave him anything.” - Luke 15:16 And why? "And not many days later, the younger son gathered everything together and went on a journey to a distant country, and there he squandered his estate in wild living. Now when he had spent everything" - Luke 15:13-14 There are four reasons given. Why is only one “the real reason” for you? |
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Post by Monster Man on Mar 27, 2023 5:25:29 GMT
And why? "And not many days later, the younger son gathered everything together and went on a journey to a distant country, and there he squandered his estate in wild living. Now when he had spent everything" - Luke 15:13-14 There are four reasons given. Why is only one “the real reason” for you? I already explained this before. |
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Post by Mercy for All on Mar 27, 2023 13:09:08 GMT
There are four reasons given. Why is only one “the real reason” for you? I already explained this before. The reason is because that in our culture the value of individual responsibility trumps the other values. So we don’t even see the other reasons when they’re right in front of us. Remember that you implied earlier that those reasons were not in the text. |
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