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Post by Mercy for All on Mar 21, 2023 20:02:27 GMT
“The prophetic voice of the church is often stifled as a result of its entanglements with political and economic interests.” - Jean-Jacques Suurmond
Couldn’t have said it better…
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Post by jasmine on Mar 23, 2023 2:36:03 GMT
“The prophetic voice of the church is often stifled as a result of its entanglements with political and economic interests.” - Jean-Jacques Suurmond Couldn’t have said it better… Is he saying that the message of Christ is being hindered by Christians getting too involved in politics and the pursuit of financial gain? |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2023 7:57:27 GMT
“The prophetic voice of the church is often stifled as a result of its entanglements with political and economic interests.” - Jean-Jacques Suurmond Couldn’t have said it better… Is he saying that the message of Christ is being hindered by Christians getting too involved in politics and the pursuit of financial gain? Duh! |
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Post by Mercy for All on Mar 23, 2023 12:35:41 GMT
“The prophetic voice of the church is often stifled as a result of its entanglements with political and economic interests.” - Jean-Jacques Suurmond Couldn’t have said it better… Is he saying that the message of Christ is being hindered by Christians getting too involved in politics and the pursuit of financial gain? Hindered? Distorted, obscured, poisoned. The Church is to have an invitational voice and a prophetic voice. How can the Church speak prophetically on, say, sexuality, when a third of Christian marriages end in divorce? Worse, when the Church has committed adultery with idols (fame, wealth, the American Dream, etc.) how can she speak clearly and cogently about the desires and intents of her Husband? |
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Post by jasmine on Mar 23, 2023 18:43:27 GMT
Is he saying that the message of Christ is being hindered by Christians getting too involved in politics and the pursuit of financial gain? Hindered? Distorted, obscured, poisoned. The Church is to have an invitational voice and a prophetic voice. How can the Church speak prophetically on, say, sexuality, when a third of Christian marriages end in divorce? Worse, when the Church has committed adultery with idols (fame, wealth, the American Dream, etc.) how can she speak clearly and cogently about the desires and intents of her Husband? I agree with you, hence my “FlashPoint” thread. But I also think there is value in churches speaking out against sin and taking a stand for God’s Word. It’s just that too many churches take it too far (both conservative and liberal churches). The unfortunate thing is, it seems the world is changing the church rather than the church changing the world. |
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Post by Mercy for All on Mar 23, 2023 21:32:08 GMT
Hindered? Distorted, obscured, poisoned. The Church is to have an invitational voice and a prophetic voice. How can the Church speak prophetically on, say, sexuality, when a third of Christian marriages end in divorce? Worse, when the Church has committed adultery with idols (fame, wealth, the American Dream, etc.) how can she speak clearly and cogently about the desires and intents of her Husband? I agree with you, hence my “FlashPoint” thread. But I also think there is value in churches speaking out against sin and taking a stand for God’s Word. It’s just that too many churches take it too far (both conservative and liberal churches). The unfortunate thing is, it seems the world is changing the church rather than the church changing the world. Tough to "speak out against sin" when it rules within the church. That's the point of the quote. Also, because of political enmeshing, which sins are spoken out against seem to be determined more by political bent than by God's intent. |
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Post by jasmine on Mar 23, 2023 21:42:45 GMT
I agree with you, hence my “FlashPoint” thread. But I also think there is value in churches speaking out against sin and taking a stand for God’s Word. It’s just that too many churches take it too far (both conservative and liberal churches). The unfortunate thing is, it seems the world is changing the church rather than the church changing the world. Tough to "speak out against sin" when it rules within the church. That's the point of the quote. Also, because of political enmeshing, which sins are spoken out against seem to be determined more by political bent than by God's intent. What do you suggest churches do to address this problem? |
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bama beau
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Fish will piss anywhere. They just live in water.
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Post by bama beau on Mar 23, 2023 23:38:36 GMT
I agree with you, hence my “FlashPoint” thread. But I also think there is value in churches speaking out against sin and taking a stand for God’s Word. It’s just that too many churches take it too far (both conservative and liberal churches). The unfortunate thing is, it seems the world is changing the church rather than the church changing the world. Tough to "speak out against sin" when it rules within the church. That's the point of the quote. Also, because of political enmeshing, which sins are spoken out against seem to be determined more by political bent than by God's intent. Too many churches seem to organized by precinct rather than by parish. |
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Post by Mercy for All on Mar 24, 2023 1:59:43 GMT
Tough to "speak out against sin" when it rules within the church. That's the point of the quote. Also, because of political enmeshing, which sins are spoken out against seem to be determined more by political bent than by God's intent. Too many churches seem to organized by precinct rather than by parish. Interesting. "Parish church" seems to have emerged later in history than the "city church." |
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Post by Mercy for All on Mar 24, 2023 2:02:46 GMT
Tough to "speak out against sin" when it rules within the church. That's the point of the quote. Also, because of political enmeshing, which sins are spoken out against seem to be determined more by political bent than by God's intent. What do you suggest churches do to address this problem? Judgment begins in the house of God (1 Peter 4:17). Not that churches are ever perfect, but the need is for God to illuminate what needs to be corrected internally before speaking prophetically about cultural issues. Which can't happen if cultural agendas obscure God's agendas. Someone once said, if our Sunday morning message would be exactly the same whether or not biblical text is included, then it's not a biblical message; it's a cultural message. |
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Post by jasmine on Mar 24, 2023 2:13:39 GMT
What do you suggest churches do to address this problem? Judgment begins in the house of God (1 Peter 4:17). Not that churches are ever perfect, but the need is for God to illuminate what needs to be corrected internally before speaking prophetically about cultural issues. Which can't happen if cultural agendas obscure God's agendas. Someone once said, if our Sunday morning message would be exactly the same whether or not biblical text is included, then it's not a biblical message; it's a cultural message. I just wonder how that can happen. There are churches that go against the Word of God, and I doubt they even recognize the need for correction. Two opposite extremes, as examples: That Westbrook church that preaches hatred for gays, and churches that embrace homosexuality and even have openly gay pastors. |
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Post by Mercy for All on Mar 24, 2023 2:19:38 GMT
Judgment begins in the house of God (1 Peter 4:17). Not that churches are ever perfect, but the need is for God to illuminate what needs to be corrected internally before speaking prophetically about cultural issues. Which can't happen if cultural agendas obscure God's agendas. Someone once said, if our Sunday morning message would be exactly the same whether or not biblical text is included, then it's not a biblical message; it's a cultural message. I just wonder how that can happen. There are churches that go against the Word of God, and I doubt they even recognize the need for correction. Two opposite extremes, as examples: That Westbrook church that preaches hatred for gays, and churches that embrace homosexuality and even have openly gay pastors. I know how it can happen, but it's a long slow process that might not be quick enough for people that idolize "success." |
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Post by jasmine on Mar 24, 2023 2:29:28 GMT
I just wonder how that can happen. There are churches that go against the Word of God, and I doubt they even recognize the need for correction. Two opposite extremes, as examples: That Westbrook church that preaches hatred for gays, and churches that embrace homosexuality and even have openly gay pastors. I know how it can happen, but it's a long slow process that might not be quick enough for people that idolize "success." I think it will take church leaders to recognize what is truly important: God’s plan of salvation. The focus needs to be on changing hearts, not political affiliations or economic classes. The church I belong to rarely gets into politics. The focus is on sharing the Gospel, building disciples and serving the community. In my view, when hearts turn to Jesus, all the other things will take care of themselves. |
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Post by Monster Man on Mar 24, 2023 16:29:11 GMT
“The prophetic voice of the church is often stifled as a result of its entanglements with political and economic interests.” - Jean-Jacques Suurmond Couldn’t have said it better… Well, I thought about this for a bit, and I agree to some degree. Where I see this happening is with the more liberal worldly churches and interfaith groups. I deal with several local ones that are almost exclusively focused on such topic as: Climate Change, Social Justice Issues, protecting "trans rights", and other such stuff. Their mission has become far more worldly centered than Christ centered and I see a lot of generic "love" messaging that ignores most of Biblical text or using a lot of contortion to write it off. Love is important, but there are different kind of love, the kind of love that you have for your children, but you are still going to correct them when they are wrong, and the kind of love I see from these more liberal churches is one where love is more equal to open acceptance of anything they are doing. |
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Post by Mercy for All on Mar 24, 2023 16:59:45 GMT
“The prophetic voice of the church is often stifled as a result of its entanglements with political and economic interests.” - Jean-Jacques Suurmond Couldn’t have said it better… Well, I thought about this for a bit, and I agree to some degree. Where I see this happening is with the more liberal worldly churches and interfaith groups. I deal with several local ones that are almost exclusively focused on such topic as: Climate Change, Social Justice Issues, protecting "trans rights", and other such stuff. Their mission has become far more worldly centered than Christ centered and I see a lot of generic "love" messaging that ignores most of Biblical text or using a lot of contortion to write it off. Love is important, but there are different kind of love, the kind of love that you have for your children, but you are still going to correct them when they are wrong, and the kind of love I see from these more liberal churches is one where love is more equal to open acceptance of anything they are doing. Seeing climate change and sexuality as a problem but not seeing nationalism and pursuit of power and the American Dream as a problem is a symptom of the problem. |
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Post by Monster Man on Mar 24, 2023 17:07:05 GMT
Well, I thought about this for a bit, and I agree to some degree. Where I see this happening is with the more liberal worldly churches and interfaith groups. I deal with several local ones that are almost exclusively focused on such topic as: Climate Change, Social Justice Issues, protecting "trans rights", and other such stuff. Their mission has become far more worldly centered than Christ centered and I see a lot of generic "love" messaging that ignores most of Biblical text or using a lot of contortion to write it off. Love is important, but there are different kind of love, the kind of love that you have for your children, but you are still going to correct them when they are wrong, and the kind of love I see from these more liberal churches is one where love is more equal to open acceptance of anything they are doing. Seeing climate change and sexuality as a problem but not seeing nationalism and pursuit of power and the American Dream as a problem is a symptom of the problem. We had a nationalism discussion before and I am not sure we came to terms with how you were defining it in the worst sense and I was pointing out how it was not necessarily so. Not sure what you have against the American Dream or where that plays into any demise of the Christian Church here... but I agree "power" for powers sake is not a good goal, not sure I see that as any large scale issue in the Church. Perhaps a few of the Mega church fanatics like Joel Osteen are certainly perverting this stuff for sure. |
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Post by jasmine on Mar 24, 2023 17:27:13 GMT
Well, I thought about this for a bit, and I agree to some degree. Where I see this happening is with the more liberal worldly churches and interfaith groups. I deal with several local ones that are almost exclusively focused on such topic as: Climate Change, Social Justice Issues, protecting "trans rights", and other such stuff. Their mission has become far more worldly centered than Christ centered and I see a lot of generic "love" messaging that ignores most of Biblical text or using a lot of contortion to write it off. Love is important, but there are different kind of love, the kind of love that you have for your children, but you are still going to correct them when they are wrong, and the kind of love I see from these more liberal churches is one where love is more equal to open acceptance of anything they are doing. Seeing climate change and sexuality as a problem but not seeing nationalism and pursuit of power and the American Dream as a problem is a symptom of the problem. How do you define the American Dream? |
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Post by Mercy for All on Mar 24, 2023 17:47:32 GMT
Seeing climate change and sexuality as a problem but not seeing nationalism and pursuit of power and the American Dream as a problem is a symptom of the problem. We had a nationalism discussion before and I am not sure we came to terms with how you were defining it in the worst sense and I was pointing out how it was not necessarily so. Not sure what you have against the American Dream or where that plays into any demise of the Christian Church here... but I agree "power" for powers sake is not a good goal, not sure I see that as any large scale issue in the Church. Perhaps a few of the Mega church fanatics like Joel Osteen are certainly perverting this stuff for sure. Pursuit of power is just as tempting and disastrous in a small church as in a large church. People still fight for influence and prestige in a small pond. As for the American Dream…uhhh…really? Is that congruous with a biblical aim? |
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Post by Mercy for All on Mar 24, 2023 17:49:32 GMT
Seeing climate change and sexuality as a problem but not seeing nationalism and pursuit of power and the American Dream as a problem is a symptom of the problem. How do you define the American Dream? Francis Schaeffer described the values of our culture as affluence and personal peace (where “personal peace” is the ability to insulate ourselves from the pain and tragedies of the world). I think he was on to something. The American Dream is the pursuit of autonomous freedom facilitated by money. |
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Post by Monster Man on Mar 24, 2023 18:03:43 GMT
We had a nationalism discussion before and I am not sure we came to terms with how you were defining it in the worst sense and I was pointing out how it was not necessarily so. Not sure what you have against the American Dream or where that plays into any demise of the Christian Church here... but I agree "power" for powers sake is not a good goal, not sure I see that as any large scale issue in the Church. Perhaps a few of the Mega church fanatics like Joel Osteen are certainly perverting this stuff for sure. Pursuit of power is just as tempting and disastrous in a small church as in a large church. People still fight for influence and prestige in a small pond. As for the American Dream…uhhh…really? Is that congruous with a biblical aim? I don't think it is incompatible to be Christian and support the "American dream" |
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