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Post by limey² on Mar 31, 2022 17:34:39 GMT
Suggestion: Expel Russia from UN Security Council. Urgent resolution to establish peacekeeping force. Line the Russian/Ukrainian border with UN troops from reliable countries (US, UK, Canada, ANZAC, France, Germany, Estonia, Poland, Nepal, Singapore, Japan) and ask India and China to show their true colours by committing to the mission. After, say, 2 weeks impose strict shoot to kill on any military assets from Ukraine or Russia seeking to cross the border except towards their home country. Any use of weapons against UN forces to be met with decisive lethal retribution. UN to use air assets to monitor and, if necessary, attack belligerents. After a defined date, any forces not in their home country to be disarmed, if necessary violently, and shipped over the border with just their personal effects. This might lead to a reshaping of the UN towards a form that actually fucking achieves something. Germans would be a bad, Bad, BAD idea. Last time German soldiers went in to Ukraine they were welcomed as liberators. I mean, that didn't last.... but....
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2022 17:55:25 GMT
This kind of question and answer tells us nothing. It's infuriating. This is the main point with regard to sanctions vis a vis the negotiations: "The conversation could also come to include the lifting of certain sanctions, such as restrictions on trade or investment." And it's something the Russians have specifically noted during the discussions with Ukraine. And we've talked about sanctions with Zelensky. I would have to look again but I haven't seen much indicating we're willing to ease sanctions as part of the negotiating process. I'm also surprised a more mainstream outlet like NPR even asked the question at all.
I'm so fucking cynical at this point I'm almost convinced that betting on "things can always get worse" is the safe bet.
I do hope the Biden administration pushes dropping sanctions as part of a peace deal. But I don't think they will. I think their goal is to keep the war going for a lot of reasons.
And since their implementation these sanctions have been discussed as a tool for pushing the "oligarchy" to dethrone Putin. I wouldn't mention it if it was just the punditry, but even Biden has been ... kind of ... making that argument.
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Post by limey² on Mar 31, 2022 20:21:53 GMT
We also have nukes but are demonstrating we won't use them defensively and may allow others to use them - tacticaly, low-strategically- offensively. Even if only as a threat. This is new. So,"if it was going to happen it would've happened long ago" doesn't fit. Where are Western states demonstrating they won't use nukes defensively; the US modernization program certainly wouldn't suggest that. None of this is new. Too many examples to cite: Korea, Hungary, Vietnam, Czechoslovakia, Iraq, Georgia, Syria, etc., et al. Nah. Threats of Nukey McNukeface coming to the party have, until now, been associated with full war between blocs. Proxy wars were resolutely conventional. Putin has cast the convention of the last 70 years aside, either brilliantly or crazily, and given himself an apparent trump card.
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demos
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Post by demos on Mar 31, 2022 21:45:59 GMT
Threats of Nukey McNukeface coming to the party have, until now, been associated with full war between blocs. According to Biden, Anne Applebaum and many others, this is a war between blocs: democracy vs autocracy. (Unless it's our autocrats, those guys are cool). This proxy war is also conventional. And Putin's doctrine on the use of nuclear weapons isn't any different than any other states - at least as it's been laid by himself and other members of his regime.
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demos
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Post by demos on Apr 1, 2022 15:00:03 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2022 15:21:15 GMT
After the past 6 years of Vox doubling down as an influencer and a propaganda outlet started by activists it actually makes me physically ill reading their articles and knowing that half the country thinks of them as a credible news outlet. But I powered through regardless. Because that's what I do on behalf of everyone on the boards. I'm noble like that.
Truly liked how their link backing up Putin's quote on "drug addled Nazis" is a link to a NY Times opinion piece entitled "How Russia and Right-Wing Americans Converged on War in Ukraine." (See 6 years to the day thread for more on how that works.)
I imagine the nazis will be stamped out in Ukraine juuuust around about the time that Islamic extremism (one of our many national security rationalizations for invasion) is stamped out in Iraq.... but if the state of Mariupol where the Azov battalion is concentrated is any indicator ... they might be about done with that anyway.
It's noteworthy that absent from the Vox piece is any discussion about how the demilitarization of Ukraine has actually been underway for about a month now. They don't need to demand in terms for surrender something they've already ensured. And I think it's a mistake to allow Western propaganda outlets to characterize this as a "negotiated agreement" when it is in fact going to wind up being a "negotiated surrender." Russia is going to gain everything they set out to gain. Ukraine is going to lose everything they've been fighting for 8 years to hold onto. Namely, areas of Ukraine that keep saying they don't want to be part of Ukraine and hopes of joining NATO. As I've been maintaining since the outset. Russia cannot accept anything less than victory on the E Ukraine and Crimea situation. Frankly, until they get agreement on those issues from Zelenskyy, I would be concerned Russian troops moving away from Kyiv is an indicator Russia is about to nuke Kyiv.
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petep
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Post by petep on Apr 1, 2022 15:23:39 GMT
is surrendering "diplomacy?"
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demos
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Post by demos on Apr 1, 2022 15:26:50 GMT
is surrendering "diplomacy?" Negotiations are diplomacy. Sometimes you have to give things up as part of that, particularly if you are the weaker power. It's how wars typically end. That may offend your sensibilities, but unless you want things to drag on and on and more people to die, then this is the end game.
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demos
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Post by demos on Apr 4, 2022 16:49:44 GMT
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Post by demos on Apr 5, 2022 14:09:32 GMT
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Post by demos on Apr 5, 2022 20:18:00 GMT
SourceBetter for everyone to bleed out apparently.
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Post by demos on Apr 6, 2022 16:10:21 GMT
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Post by demos on Apr 6, 2022 18:48:56 GMT
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Post by limey² on Apr 6, 2022 19:16:31 GMT
is surrendering "diplomacy?" Negotiations are diplomacy. Sometimes you have to give things up as part of that, particularly if you are the weaker power. It's how wars typically end. That may offend your sensibilities, but unless you want things to drag on and on and more people to die, then this is the end game. We have spent a long, long time trying to get away from might=right. Any bebefit to Russia-any at all- from the criminal attack on Ukraine is unacceptable. If we want the 18th Century back, that would be tge way to go. God knows, a lot of our elites woild love it.
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demos
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Post by demos on Apr 6, 2022 19:25:32 GMT
We have spent a long, long time trying to get away from might=right. Have we though? I honestly can't look at the past century and see that. It's been might makes right with some liberal word salad for propaganda effect. Whether or not it's unacceptable, a negotiated settlement in one sides favor is how wars typically end. And it's easy for the United States and the rest of the West to same such and such is unacceptable when we aren't paying the cost in blood and have absolutely no intent of doing so.
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petep
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Post by petep on Apr 6, 2022 19:33:22 GMT
in all this do you suspect current nato members are saying we better stick together and strengthen ties with one another, or are they saying we better split up and be on our own lest russia may get mad at us...
the answer to this is telling...
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thor
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Post by thor on Apr 6, 2022 19:43:18 GMT
We have spent a long, long time trying to get away from might=right. Have we though? I honestly can't look at the past century and see that. It's been might makes right with some liberal word salad for propaganda effect. Whether or not it's unacceptable, a negotiated settlement in one sides favor is how wars typically end. And it's easy for the United States and the rest of the West to same such and such is unacceptable when we aren't paying the cost in blood and have absolutely no intent of doing so. And it's also easy for you to want a 'negotiated settlement' when it isn't you that is the one losing anything.
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Post by Odysseus on Apr 6, 2022 19:43:25 GMT
We have spent a long, long time trying to get away from might=right. Have we though? I honestly can't look at the past century and see that. It's been might makes right with some liberal word salad for propaganda effect. Mmmm. Word salad.
Would that be with Russian Dressing?
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demos
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Post by demos on Apr 6, 2022 19:44:45 GMT
in all this do you suspect current nato members are saying we better stick together and strengthen ties with one another, or are they saying we better split up and be on our own lest russia may get mad at us... Have you heard of a country called Hungary? Have you seen the hedging that Germany is still engaged in? Then we have this news. If we maintain/increase U.S. troops in Europe, the freeriding will continue. I'll believe other NATO member states are stepping up to the plate on collective security when we see them sustain it.
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demos
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Post by demos on Apr 6, 2022 19:49:02 GMT
And it's also easy for you to want a 'negotiated settlement' when it isn't you that is the one losing anything. What do we gain by encouraging Ukraine to fight for something that we aren't going to provide them, i.e., a security guarantee through NATO or some other agreement? What does Ukraine gain from that? We're just sending more people to the slaughter; for what?
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