demos
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Post by demos on Mar 25, 2022 21:22:02 GMT
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Post by wyattstorch on Mar 25, 2022 21:29:30 GMT
I suppose where I'm going with this is this claim, or assumption, that because ukraine is not being accepted as a nato member now, they never would be...or there is no desire to ever add them....its a foolish, actually insane, position. My first question would be is nato good...yes or no...if yes, then I'd ask is it better to have more quality members or not...if yes then I'd ask did ukraine aspire to meet the thershold to become nato and would nato be welcomed if it met the theshhold...what direction where we both moving, ukraine and nato... lets face it, even the US did not one day become what it is today...arguably ukraine given where it was in 1991, has progressed remarkably towards a free society. I know this from personal dealings with companies and people there. Compared to the russian teams we had they are light years ahead. In many respects, by locking someone - a country - out of nato indefinitely, because russia demanded it, is a massive blow to nato, and the major western powers....its a massive win for russia and dictatorships around the world....its one more nation that dictatorships can openly attack and abuse without any threat of a nato retaliation. Perhaps one of the worst deals/concessions in the past century plus if it comes to this...
This isn't a concession being made in some ornate white house room between trading partners over the flow of soybeans or airplanes.
This is a concession to help end an active war.
And no deal that is made here is necessarily permanent.
So it seems like a downright sensible way to help end the death and destruction.
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Odysseus
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Post by Odysseus on Mar 25, 2022 21:44:13 GMT
Huh, this I did not know.
I'm in the middle of something else but will look at your links later.
It does sound like a lost opportunity.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2022 15:29:10 GMT
"He added that Ukraine and Russia had reached a partial understanding on four of the six areas of disagreement. He said that Ukrainian President Vlodymyr Zelensky was likely to end Ukraine’s bid for Nato membership and recognise Russian as one of Ukraine's official languages. “Ukraine also expressed that it could make some concessions on disarmament,” Erdogan said. “Of course it isn’t a complete disarmament. Ukraine also expressed a positive attitude towards the collective security demands.” The Turkish president said the main point of contention between the two countries was the status of Crimea and the separatist-controlled regions of Donbas and Luhansk." -- www.middleeasteye.net/news/turkey-russia-ukraine-erdogan-putin-honourable-exitSo it sounds like a deal is shaping up quite similar to what I was describing weeks ago.And of course, as expected, dropping the bid for NATO membership is a key concession. And an easy one to make, since NATO membership was unlikely anyway. And coincidentally, it's shaping up exactly like Russia outlined on day one of their invasion... |
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demos
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Post by demos on Mar 27, 2022 15:36:04 GMT
Good discussion of neutrality and neutralization: Listen |
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Post by MojoJojo on Mar 27, 2022 21:35:22 GMT
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demos
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Post by demos on Mar 28, 2022 14:22:03 GMT
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petep
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Post by petep on Mar 28, 2022 15:02:20 GMT
Is there even a ukraine left any longer?
It seems most all major city centers have been attacked and leveled.
Is there any thought as to how ukranians will look at russians in the future? Does it take one or two generations to get past something like this?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2022 16:01:14 GMT
Is there even a ukraine left any longer? It seems most all major city centers have been attacked and leveled. Is there any thought as to how ukranians will look at russians in the future? Does it take one or two generations to get past something like this?
Is there any thought as to why Russia (the nation not the people) should care about how a defanged and crushed Ukraine looks at Russians in the future?
It seems to me that if there isn't a ukraine left any longer one should ask why Zelenskyy (and his oligarchic backers) thought it was worth sacrificing the entire country of Ukraine to try to hold onto the Russian speaking parts of Ukraine that have been trying to declare independence since the 90s.
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petep
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Post by petep on Mar 28, 2022 16:16:04 GMT
Is there even a ukraine left any longer? It seems most all major city centers have been attacked and leveled. Is there any thought as to how ukranians will look at russians in the future? Does it take one or two generations to get past something like this?
Is there any thought as to why Russia (the nation not the people) should care about how a defanged and crushed Ukraine looks at Russians in the future?
It seems to me that if there isn't a ukraine left any longer one should ask why Zelenskyy (and his oligarchic backers) thought it was worth sacrificing the entire country of Ukraine to try to hold onto the Russian speaking parts of Ukraine that have been trying to declare independence since the 90s.
Based on what we are all seeing - clearly by the way - the ukranian people seem very much behind the tact they are taking with respect to fighting back a brutally and savagely attacking pit bull. For some very odd reason since the start of this you seem to place the blame squarely on zelensky and the west....you'll throw in the occasional yes, sure, putin is wrong....but 99% of your posts focus on all the things the west aand zelensky are doing wrong... somehow you are dismissing, or ignoring completely, it is their country and they are free to do whatever they want...give in, fight back....its up to them...and I've yet to see any movement whatsoever in ukraine, or the women & children who escaped, calling for zelenskys head.... why not simply say you think zelensky and the ukranian people are doing something that you, if you were ukranian, would not support.... but the sideline quarterbacking makes no sense... |
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Post by wyattstorch on Mar 28, 2022 16:23:12 GMT
Is there any thought as to why Russia (the nation not the people) should care about how a defanged and crushed Ukraine looks at Russians in the future?
It seems to me that if there isn't a ukraine left any longer one should ask why Zelenskyy (and his oligarchic backers) thought it was worth sacrificing the entire country of Ukraine to try to hold onto the Russian speaking parts of Ukraine that have been trying to declare independence since the 90s.
Based on what we are all seeing - clearly by the way - the ukranian people seem very much behind the tact they are taking with respect to fighting back a brutally and savagely attacking pit bull. For some very odd reason since the start of this you seem to place the blame squarely on zelensky and the west....you'll throw in the occasional yes, sure, putin is wrong....but 99% of your posts focus on all the things the west aand zelensky are doing wrong... somehow you are dismissing, or ignoring completely, it is their country and they are free to do whatever they want...give in, fight back....its up to them...and I've yet to see any movement whatsoever in ukraine, or the women & children who escaped, calling for zelenskys head.... why not simply say you think zelensky and the ukranian people are doing something that you, if you were ukranian, would not support.... but the sideline quarterbacking makes no sense...
Sideline quarterbacking is a key feature of a political discussion.
Everyone who says Russia shouldn't invade.
Everyone who says China better not take Taiwan.
Everyone who comments on what Biden did wrong our should have done or should do.
Everyone who comments on what BLM, the religious right, the state of Florida or California (absent those who live in those states), should do.
So to say all of this "makes no sense" in the context of a political discussion forum....makes no sense.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2022 16:30:55 GMT
Is there any thought as to why Russia (the nation not the people) should care about how a defanged and crushed Ukraine looks at Russians in the future?
It seems to me that if there isn't a ukraine left any longer one should ask why Zelenskyy (and his oligarchic backers) thought it was worth sacrificing the entire country of Ukraine to try to hold onto the Russian speaking parts of Ukraine that have been trying to declare independence since the 90s.
Based on what we are all seeing - clearly by the way - the ukranian people seem very much behind the tact they are taking with respect to fighting back a brutally and savagely attacking pit bull. For some very odd reason since the start of this you seem to place the blame squarely on zelensky and the west....you'll throw in the occasional yes, sure, putin is wrong....but 99% of your posts focus on all the things the west aand zelensky are doing wrong... somehow you are dismissing, or ignoring completely, it is their country and they are free to do whatever they want...give in, fight back....its up to them...and I've yet to see any movement whatsoever in ukraine, or the women & children who escaped, calling for zelenskys head.... why not simply say you think zelensky and the ukranian people are doing something that you, if you were ukranian, would not support.... but the sideline quarterbacking makes no sense...
One of the similarities between PDS and TDS I'm noticing is this "99% of your posts focus on castigating the left and ignoring Trump. Sure you'll say Trump is a pig but you spend all your time focusing on what the left and the Democrats are doing wrong."
And my answer is the same. I don't give a flying fuck about the right wing in America nor do I give a flying fig about Putin's place in history. (Where he will probably be remembered as one of Russia's greatest leaders by 85% of the world's population regardless of our opinions on the matter.)
Are there not enough people in the United States criticizing Trump? Does the criticism need my voice added to the chorus?
Are there not enough people in the United States criticizing Putin? Does the criticism need my voice added to the chorus?
I care about the left wing turning on its own principles. And I care about America betraying its own "democratic" principles as well. Are you even aware that the people advising Biden on foreign policy right now are the same dipshits that have been advising presidents since Clinton in some cases? My consistent focus on the actual problem makes your lack of consistency on the problem stand out glaringly like a sore thumb.
Why is it you think all of the people who were testifying against Trump in his first impeachment who have no clue how Trump and the people of America that disagree with them think, are suddenly divine prognosticators with a keen and shrewd understanding of how Putin and the Russian people think? You have bit so hard on the "What Putin's REALLY saying" narratives advanced by these same people, I'm beginning to wonder about your leftist religious sympathies Petep. You supported "sideline quarterbacking" during the impeachments. Why so many appeals to these same authorities now?
Right now, farmers are having trouble finding enough fertilizer for their crops because Russia supplied 10% of our domestic fertilizer and inflation is pushing domestic sources out of reach for many farmers. Leading to concerns about mass famines and food shortages worldwide and even food shortages here in the United States.
I'm betting in about 6 months people will have forgotten about Ukraine as the foreign policy "expert" induced recessions start hitting Western governments. << That's far more important to me than a border squabble between Slavic oligarchies on the other side of the planet.
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demos
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Post by demos on Mar 28, 2022 16:44:59 GMT
Source (paywall) According to Bellingcat, which is involved in this whole thing, this occurred on March 3. However, they note this: "The three men experiencing the symptoms consumed only chocolate and water in the hours before the symptoms appeared. A fourth member of the team who also consumed these did not experience symptoms." Then they go right back to positing that it was a poisoning. ( Source) It wouldn't be outside the realm of possibility for this to happen, but Putin reportedly approved Abramovich's role in the talks (see post #268). And if they were poisoned, not sure why they would continue negotiating, since Bellingcat said it hadn't previously reported on it in order to protect the victims.
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demos
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Post by demos on Mar 28, 2022 20:44:42 GMT
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demos
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Post by demos on Mar 29, 2022 14:01:10 GMT
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demos
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Post by demos on Mar 29, 2022 17:23:37 GMT
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petep
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Post by petep on Mar 30, 2022 11:23:16 GMT
Russias demands. What a joke.
It’s like a serial rapist demanding a woman gag herself and place herself in handcuffs.
But I do see the drug dealers and Nazis are off the table so they must have gotten rid of them.
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demos
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Post by demos on Mar 30, 2022 13:32:33 GMT
SourceSourceThen there's this: Ukraine's UK ambassador Vadym Prystaiko was scathing about his presence in Istanbul: "I have no idea what Mr Abramovich is claiming or doing. He is not a part of the negotiation team," he told the BBC. ( Source) Well, maybe ask your President, because he told the U.S. to hold off on sanctioning him because Abramovich was useful in the negotiations (see post #264).
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Post by wyattstorch on Mar 30, 2022 14:10:11 GMT
Russias demands. What a joke. It’s like a serial rapist demanding a woman gag herself and place herself in handcuffs. But I do see the drug dealers and Nazis are off the table so they must have gotten rid of them.
Or, more realistically, that was never a real demand, but a tactic for negotiating and propagandizing.
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petep
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Post by petep on Mar 30, 2022 17:20:31 GMT
Russias demands. What a joke. It’s like a serial rapist demanding a woman gag herself and place herself in handcuffs. But I do see the drug dealers and Nazis are off the table so they must have gotten rid of them.
Or, more realistically, that was never a real demand, but a tactic for negotiating and propagandizing.
To what end. Putin has leveled most all cities. |
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