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Post by Running Deer on May 3, 2022 21:10:25 GMT
I don't think there's an argument here! I agree there's a difference between "believing the metaphysical facts of a religion" and "following the moral teachings of a religion". In fact, my point is that the first one doesn't seem to have much effect on the second one.
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Post by Mercy for All on May 3, 2022 23:26:17 GMT
I don't think there's an argument here! I agree there's a difference between "believing the metaphysical facts of a religion" and "following the moral teachings of a religion". In fact, my point is that the first one doesn't seem to have much effect on the second one. I would argue that what people do reflects what they actually believe, sometimes in contradiction to what they say they believe, or even think they believe. |
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Post by Running Deer on May 4, 2022 1:08:52 GMT
I wouldn't go quite that far. Plenty of us do things we believe we shouldn't and suffer guilt, shame, regret, etc. St. Paul himself lamented it!
As far as I would go, though, what you believe about metaphysics is pretty easy to wall off from what you believe about how you ought to treat other people. Humans are excellent compartmentalizers.
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Post by Mercy for All on May 4, 2022 2:25:41 GMT
I wouldn't go quite that far. Plenty of us do things we believe we shouldn't and suffer guilt, shame, regret, etc. St. Paul himself lamented it! As far as I would go, though, what you believe about metaphysics is pretty easy to wall off from what you believe about how you ought to treat other people. Humans are excellent compartmentalizers. Shame, guilt, regret, etc., are likely the result of unintegrated personality or tension in unresolved contradictory beliefs. If I say I believe marriage is sacred, and that I meant my wedding vows, but have repeated affairs, my actions reveal my "true beliefs." Romans 7 is difficult, but I believe that illustrates that tension—for Paul, between the sarx and the pneuma (he leverages these words to mean something other than what they may have commonly been used for) . N.T. Wright argues that Romans 7 is not autobiographical...that Paul is speaking rhetorically about Israel's history (specifically, Israel receiving the Torah in the wilderness). It's an interesting argument, but it seems a little strained. |
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2022 21:22:18 GMT
I wouldn't go quite that far. Plenty of us do things we believe we shouldn't and suffer guilt, shame, regret, etc. St. Paul himself lamented it! As far as I would go, though, what you believe about metaphysics is pretty easy to wall off from what you believe about how you ought to treat other people. Humans are excellent compartmentalizers. Shame, guilt, regret, etc., are likely the result of unintegrated personality or tension in unresolved contradictory beliefs. If I say I believe marriage is sacred, and that I meant my wedding vows, but have repeated affairs, my actions reveal my "true beliefs." Romans 7 is difficult, but I believe that illustrates that tension—for Paul, between the sarx and the pneuma (he leverages these words to mean something other than what they may have commonly been used for) . N.T. Wright argues that Romans 7 is not autobiographical...that Paul is speaking rhetorically about Israel's history (specifically, Israel receiving the Torah in the wilderness). It's an interesting argument, but it seems a little strained. Why can't your "true beliefs" change over time? |
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2022 20:34:50 GMT
And yet there are many, many people who were once monstrous, and are no longer, and attribute the change to their religious beliefs. You can also find people who were once fine, but are now monstrous, and attribute the change to their religious beliefs. Granted, they think they are doing God's will or protecting their religion or people, but they wouldn't have committed those atrocities without a change in religion. But also, we don't really understand why one person at Friday prayers goes home to his shop, and the other flies to Syria to behead Shiites. Why does a person in one pew hide Jews from the Nazis but in the other pew works at a concentration camp? It can't be religion; they've got the same one! Note how the latter is rarely seen by the believers as a stain against religion as they oppose the "no true christian" argument. So they will only count the first one as one of them and you end up with a cognitive dissonance where they will globally count everyone as christian just for being born in a christian environment but will discount them individually as soon as they do something that could bring shame to their creed. |
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Post by Monster Man on May 19, 2022 18:02:20 GMT
You can also find people who were once fine, but are now monstrous, and attribute the change to their religious beliefs. Granted, they think they are doing God's will or protecting their religion or people, but they wouldn't have committed those atrocities without a change in religion. But also, we don't really understand why one person at Friday prayers goes home to his shop, and the other flies to Syria to behead Shiites. Why does a person in one pew hide Jews from the Nazis but in the other pew works at a concentration camp? It can't be religion; they've got the same one! Note how the latter is rarely seen by the believers as a stain against religion as they oppose the "no true christian" argument. So they will only count the first one as one of them and you end up with a cognitive dissonance where they will globally count everyone as christian just for being born in a christian environment but will discount them individually as soon as they do something that could bring shame to their creed. You are conflating a few things here. There is a difference in what one claims to be and in how ones actions do not adhere. There can be a difference between what one claims to be the way someone should act as member of group X and what is actually believed in group X about how someone should act. Someone can claim to be part of group X, believe the core aspects of what group X believes, and yet still not be perfect and mess up on doing what group X believes... |
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2022 19:48:10 GMT
Note how the latter is rarely seen by the believers as a stain against religion as they oppose the "no true christian" argument. So they will only count the first one as one of them and you end up with a cognitive dissonance where they will globally count everyone as christian just for being born in a christian environment but will discount them individually as soon as they do something that could bring shame to their creed. You are conflating a few things here. There is a difference in what one claims to be and in how ones actions do not adhere. There can be a difference between what one claims to be the way someone should act as member of group X and what is actually believed in group X about how someone should act. Someone can claim to be part of group X, believe the core aspects of what group X believes, and yet still not be perfect and mess up on doing what group X believes... And if that's not a verbose elaboration of the "no true christian" argument then I don't know what is. You might want to pick up a book once in a while instead of contemplating your navel. |
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Post by Monster Man on May 19, 2022 19:51:50 GMT
You are conflating a few things here. There is a difference in what one claims to be and in how ones actions do not adhere. There can be a difference between what one claims to be the way someone should act as member of group X and what is actually believed in group X about how someone should act. Someone can claim to be part of group X, believe the core aspects of what group X believes, and yet still not be perfect and mess up on doing what group X believes... And if that's not a verbose elaboration of the "no true christian" argument then I don't know what is. You might want to pick up a book once in a while instead of contemplating your navel. I figured this would be too much for you to comprehend. I was mainly responding to you because I knew other folks out there reading would grasp this. |
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2022 19:57:15 GMT
And if that's not a verbose elaboration of the "no true christian" argument then I don't know what is. You might want to pick up a book once in a while instead of contemplating your navel. I figured this would be too much for you to comprehend. I was mainly responding to you because I knew other folks out there reading would grasp this. You just developed with a diarrhea of words the well-known "no true christian " argument, you twit! |
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Post by Monster Man on May 19, 2022 20:05:05 GMT
I figured this would be too much for you to comprehend. I was mainly responding to you because I knew other folks out there reading would grasp this. You just developed with a diarrhea of words the well-known "no true christian " argument, you twit! I literally did not. If you bothered to read and comprehend what I said. |
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2022 20:07:50 GMT
You just developed with a diarrhea of words the well-known "no true christian " argument, you twit! I literally did not. If you bothered to read and comprehend what I said. Yeah, like people can't see for themselves...  |
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Post by Monster Man on May 21, 2022 2:22:15 GMT
I literally did not. If you bothered to read and comprehend what I said. Yeah, like people can't see for themselves... Let me see if I can put this in terms you understand. French military are known for surrendering, mocked routinely for having white flags sown into their caps So, when I say to you: There is a difference in what one claims to be and in how ones actions do not adhere. Example: French soldier actually not surrendering. They are still a French soldier, even though their actions might not adhere to what a French soldier would typically do. There can be a difference between what one claims to be the way someone should act as member of group X and what is actually believed in group X about how someone should act. Example: A person claiming that all French soldiers don't really carry white flags could be wrong in that French soldiers really do carry white flags prepared to surrender. So this doesn't mean someone is not a French soldier because that person was making a bad claim about all French soldiers. Someone can claim to be part of group X, believe the core aspects of what group X believes, and yet still not be perfect and mess up on doing what group X believes... Example: A person can claim to be a French soldier, carry cheese and wine around like one, and yet, still might not be perfect and forget his white flag. That doesn't mean he isn't a French soldier just because he forgot his white flag. |
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2022 5:04:02 GMT
Yeah, like people can't see for themselves... Let me see if I can put this in terms you understand. French military are known for surrendering, mocked routinely for having white flags sown into their caps So, when I say to you: There is a difference in what one claims to be and in how ones actions do not adhere. Example: French soldier actually not surrendering. They are still a French soldier, even though their actions might not adhere to what a French soldier would typically do. There can be a difference between what one claims to be the way someone should act as member of group X and what is actually believed in group X about how someone should act. Example: A person claiming that all French soldiers don't really carry white flags could be wrong in that French soldiers really do carry white flags prepared to surrender. So this doesn't mean someone is not a French soldier because that person was making a bad claim about all French soldiers. Someone can claim to be part of group X, believe the core aspects of what group X believes, and yet still not be perfect and mess up on doing what group X believes... Example: A person can claim to be a French soldier, carry cheese and wine around like one, and yet, still might not be perfect and forget his white flag. That doesn't mean he isn't a French soldier just because he forgot his white flag. Are you drunk? Or did you snuff plane glue that killed whatever "brain" cells you had left? Or is it crack, maybe? Don't tell me this is your normal state! Anyway, let me tell you what you are known for around here. You are known for being a liar and a coward and no one here believes that you ever were in the military, you're not even good enough to be that Gomer Pile guy from "Full Metal Jacket" and he had the good sense to put a bullet in his head in the end. You wouldn't even qualify as that drill instructor's doormat. That's the gist of what people around here think of you. You wouldn't believe the good laughs we get at your expense via PMs. Why don't you get a big "L" tattooed on your forehead so that people would know what they are talking to. Forget that, I am sure that one look at you is clear enough and leaves no doubt as to your nature. |
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Post by Monster Man on May 21, 2022 12:25:17 GMT
Let me see if I can put this in terms you understand. French military are known for surrendering, mocked routinely for having white flags sown into their caps So, when I say to you: There is a difference in what one claims to be and in how ones actions do not adhere. Example: French soldier actually not surrendering. They are still a French soldier, even though their actions might not adhere to what a French soldier would typically do. There can be a difference between what one claims to be the way someone should act as member of group X and what is actually believed in group X about how someone should act. Example: A person claiming that all French soldiers don't really carry white flags could be wrong in that French soldiers really do carry white flags prepared to surrender. So this doesn't mean someone is not a French soldier because that person was making a bad claim about all French soldiers. Someone can claim to be part of group X, believe the core aspects of what group X believes, and yet still not be perfect and mess up on doing what group X believes... Example: A person can claim to be a French soldier, carry cheese and wine around like one, and yet, still might not be perfect and forget his white flag. That doesn't mean he isn't a French soldier just because he forgot his white flag. Are you drunk? Or did you snuff plane glue that killed whatever "brain" cells you had left? Or is it crack, maybe? Don't tell me this is your normal state! Anyway, let me tell you what you are known for around here. You are known for being a liar and a coward and no one here believes that you ever were in the military, you're not even good enough to be that Gomer Pile guy from "Full Metal Jacket" and he had the good sense to put a bullet in his head in the end. You wouldn't even qualify as that drill instructor's doormat. That's the gist of what people around here think of you. You wouldn't believe the good laughs we get at your expense via PMs. Why don't you get a big "L" tattooed on your forehead so that people would know what they are talking to. Forget that, I am sure that one look at you is clear enough and leaves no doubt as to your nature. Of course I believe you guys talk about me! You are the President of my fan club. I’d expect nothing else. |
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2022 16:11:19 GMT
Are you drunk? Or did you snuff plane glue that killed whatever "brain" cells you had left? Or is it crack, maybe? Don't tell me this is your normal state! Anyway, let me tell you what you are known for around here. You are known for being a liar and a coward and no one here believes that you ever were in the military, you're not even good enough to be that Gomer Pile guy from "Full Metal Jacket" and he had the good sense to put a bullet in his head in the end. You wouldn't even qualify as that drill instructor's doormat. That's the gist of what people around here think of you. You wouldn't believe the good laughs we get at your expense via PMs. Why don't you get a big "L" tattooed on your forehead so that people would know what they are talking to. Forget that, I am sure that one look at you is clear enough and leaves no doubt as to your nature. Of course I believe you guys talk about me! You are the President of my fan club. I’d expect nothing else. Yeah, don't get excited. We also talk about dog poop on the sidewalks and you're held in about equal esteem. |
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