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Post by Mercy for All on Feb 4, 2022 16:28:38 GMT
I don't know...there are a lot of little ones that we ignore because it doesn't fit our systematic theologies. For example, Genesis 4:7 completely undermines Luther's and Calvin's definition of total depravity. And neither address that issue in their commentaries on Genesis. They ignore it completely. well, I don't subscribe to the definition of total depravity that you have found in Luther's and Calvin's work, but I will admit I have never read Calvin's Institutes on Religion or whatever the name is. I don't think it's humanly possible to read that. John Calvin strikes me as a humorless, dry sort, whose company I would avoid. But that which is called Calvinism was not made up by him. His name just got attached to it. This is true. It's why I went to his own definition. Right...sin crouches at the door and "desires to have you." In other words, Cain (post-Fall) is not ruled or dominated by sin. Total depravity says we can't (on our own) rule over sin—we are ruled by it. It's a quandary, because all goodness is found in God and to reject God (not the idea of God, but God) doesn't leave any other options of "goodness." So "evil" must be the only other option. That's problematic, because we know atheists can do good things. You have to be pretty cynical to claim "that's not really good, it only looks like it's good." That's why I think the solution is God's Spirit present and active in every person...even those who are not Christians. I mean, we say God's Spirit is omnipresent, but not in non-Christians. How does that make sense? |
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Post by elmerfudd on Feb 4, 2022 22:29:50 GMT
I think it's totally scriptural that we can't, on our own, rule over sin. I think total depravity DOES mean that.
I believe scripture says that, apart from God, what we perceive as good is as a filthy rag. Doesn't mean that the secularly "good" things we do are not "good" worldly speaking, but they are NOT good in the signt of God. Certainly not good enough, anyway.
I agree that atheists can do good things and frequently do. I know a few who are, IMO, "better people" than some professing Christians I know. Judging by man's standards, that is.
The Creator is present in all He created. The presence of a conscience is, IMO, proof of that.
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bama beau
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Post by bama beau on Feb 5, 2022 4:57:04 GMT
If God truly is omniscient, can anyone else truly know that? So you're saying that the people who keep saying that are full of shit. I'm just wondering how they can claim to know that. |
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Post by Mercy for All on Feb 5, 2022 14:17:06 GMT
I think it's totally scriptural that we can't, on our own, rule over sin. I think total depravity DOES mean that. And yet that seems to be the implication of Genesis 4:7. There are prophetic passages that are misused because readers ignore that sometimes the prophet is sharing his own opinion, perspective, reaction, angst, etc. This is not one of those. These words are out of God's mouth. Universally? Or is there a context? Chapter and verse markers are great for finding texts, but unfortunately it has led us in the west to snip scripture into tiny slices and ignore context. We'd rather pick and choose verses from here and there and assemble to support our interpretive frameworks. Examples abound. And yet the conscience can be "seared." |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2022 20:37:57 GMT
So you're saying that the people who keep saying that are full of shit. I'm just wondering how they can claim to know that. Which is a diplomatic way of saying the same thing. |
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Odysseus
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Trump = Disaster
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Post by Odysseus on Feb 6, 2022 0:43:50 GMT
And yet the conscience can be "seared."
Like a good rib steak.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2022 21:44:31 GMT
And yet the conscience can be "seared."
Like a good rib steak.
I bet he's got his fair share of ribbing over crap like this. |
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