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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2020 1:38:47 GMT
Oh and your one dimensional tortured rendition is supposed to be a neutral view? Sorry, what you are offering here is eye-roll worthy. There is plenty to criticize libertarians for and your point does strike some of the relevant notes. But to reduce all of libertarianism to a "liberty for me, not for thee" position is overly simplistic and therefore wrong. There are libertarians and classical liberals, past and present, which do NOT fit this characterization. They are the exact opposite. They are bleeding heart types. But to hear you tell it, they must not exist. We shouldn't let the missteps of the paleolibertarians (Lew Rockwell, Tom Woods, Late Rothbard, Hoppe) own libertarianism and discredit the entire idea. Where did I claim to be neutral?
I don't consider myself to be a libertarian. Nor a classical liberal, which I gather is pretty much the same thing, at least in the UK.
So you, with some wording expressing contempt, dismiss libertarians who actually do care as "bleeding heart types" of libertarians. OK, care to mention any actual people?
What I find strange is that you also slice and dice libertarians into smaller and smaller segments, such as "bleeding heart types", and "paleolibertarians", in an attempt to avoid any overall criticism of the libertarian philosophy, if such actually exists beyond "big government bad, individuals good". And that perhaps highlights the entire contradiction within libertarianism. If big government is so bad, then where does that leave the bleeding heart libertarians who you admit exist, in cases where small government has utterly failed to address serious problems? And if individuals are always good, where does that leave those individuals with private power and wealth who actively seek to hurt and demean the less fortunate via economic methods?
Yeah, I know, you'll say that government is OK but only for certain things, like national defense. Where I your Occam's Razor to determine which parts of government are OK and which are not? And, more importantly, what is your stand on the need for government to put a limit to the abuses of powerful non-governmental individuals whose activities result in pain, suffering, degradation, and oppression of the people?
Or are you just going to adopt the smug and ineffectual, libertarian mantra, "big government bad"?
In your response you implied that the disagreement I had with your read was indicative of a less-than-neutral eye, as if you couldn't be wrong for objective/factual reasons and my disagreement was a mere function of bias. If you didn't mean that, then I don't know what you were getting at with your response. There is a great blog that just wrapped up called "Bleeding Heart Libertarians." Some of the big names there are: Jason Brennan, Jacob Levy, Roderick Long, Gary Chartier, Mike Munger, Steve Horwitz, Sarah Skwire. Aside from that blog, other big names would be Pete Boettke, Matt Ridley, Don Lavoie, Deirdre McCloskey, Virgil Storr & Emily Chamlee-Wright. You get the idea. This could go on and on. I'm not looking to avoid any criticism of libertarian ideas. I'd join you in making those criticisms. But they have to be on point and fair. What you have engaged in seems unfair- a bad faith read. You even question if such a philosophy exists beyond "big government bad, individuals good," which is another signal just how familiar you are with the relevant literature. No one who has read Adam Smith, or Hayek, or the BLH blog, would come away with that impression. Let alone someone familiar with Kevin Carson and the left-libertarian Center for a Stateless Society. But if your familiarity is only as deep as conversations with internet libertarians, I can see very clearly how you could come away with that impression. Bleeding heart libertarians tend to support a welfare state of some sort, whether tax funded or some future mutual aid system. So that clears up your question about what BLH libertarians would do about those problems "small" government does not address. To suggest "individuals are always good" is a serious part of libertarian thought is another demonstration that you lack familiarity with libertarian ideas. Individuals are not always good. That's why we need a rule of law and a state to help protect civil rights. It's also why we are concerned with limiting government. This line of questioning makes me think you haven't interacted with me in a couple years. Its like you arguing against TL from 2014.
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Odysseus
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Post by Odysseus on Jun 20, 2020 2:03:57 GMT
You are correct in that I have not made any particular effort to research the "literature" on Libertarian thought (if that is the correct term). I am going mostly by the interactions I've had over the years with those who profess to be libertarians. I cannot help if most of them have come across as smug and impractical.
How many sub-types of Libertarians are there, anyway? So far you have mentioned the "BHL" type. Any other types you'd like to describe?
Seems to me there is an essential conundrum in the statement, "Individuals are not always good. That's why we need a rule of law and a state to help protect civil rights. It's also why we are concerned with limiting government." It lies in the dilemma that all too often those who propose limiting government are doing so for selfish reasons, and their resultant activities more often than not may result in not only erosion of civil rights but economic oppression.
Yes, there can be bad individuals in government. Sometimes in positions of great power. But... that's why we have elections, free speech protections, and a media with the ability to help expose governmental abuses. Does it always work? Obviously considering who's in the Oval Office at the moment, no. Could it be improved? Yes, but constitutional amendments are a long and arduous process. Personally I think a parliamentary system would meet our nation's needs better than our relatively broken bicameral legislature combined with a near monarchical presidency. But it is what it is, and I don't see it changing in my lifetime.
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bama beau
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Post by bama beau on Jun 20, 2020 2:55:52 GMT
The political spectrum does not exist in and of itself, any more than does the number four. They are each convenient constructs, ideas used as part of theories or theorems, important not so much in and of themselves as they are important in helping to explain or organize not merely themselves, but everything else around them. Do I believe that a bi-polar political spectrum existed somewhere in the Universe, waiting to be discovered and used for the good of humanity? Of course not. But I do believe that to those who only think in two dimensions, the construct of a vaguely general Left/Right might not just be a necessary lemma, but may end up being just about all many citizens are able to comprehend. The problem, then, isn't the spectrum itself. It is the exploitation of that concept, the driving of wedges and the willful conspiracy of ignorance that cause people to become hung up on that which was merely meant to act as a useful explanation.
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Post by Odysseus on Jun 20, 2020 3:35:55 GMT
The political spectrum does not exist in and of itself, any more than does the number four. They are each convenient constructs, ideas used as part of theories or theorems, important not so much in and of themselves as they are important in helping to explain or organize not merely themselves, but everything else around them. Do I believe that a bi-polar political spectrum existed somewhere in the Universe, waiting to be discovered and used for the good of humanity? Of course not. But I do believe that to those who only think in two dimensions, the construct of a vaguely general Left/Right might not just be a necessary lemma, but may end up being just about all many citizens are able to comprehend. The problem, then, isn't the spectrum itself. It is the exploitation of that concept, the driving of wedges and the willful conspiracy of ignorance that cause people to become hung up on that which was merely meant to act as a useful explanation. It is instructive that the founders (or at least some of them) did not want to see the rise of political parties in the new nation. They saw the split of office holders into belonging to party A or party B as being contrary to the spirit of true democracy. The truth is, however, that the USA is not a true democracy; it is a representative democracy, and it is further split into three main governmental units: Legislature, Judicial, and Administrative. For some reason it seems to be a natural human tendency to be politically bi-polar, regardless of the natural order of things. I don't know exactly why, it just seems to work out that way, for better or worse, save for the one-party dictatorships of Fascism or Communism, or perhaps the pseudo-democracies like Italy and elsewhere where the real power actually isn't in the elected government but in other social institutions, and the proliferation of multiple small parties tends to lead to political stalemate and power devolves to elsewhere.
The bi-polarness appears to be deeply embedded in human nature: for example, traditional games like chess pit one player against the other; not multiple players in a melee. Similarly, in sports, you have one team (at a time) playing against another. Not multiple teams playing all at once. It does make a certain mathematical sense, despite the political results often being less than optimal.
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bama beau
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Post by bama beau on Jun 20, 2020 3:46:59 GMT
The political spectrum does not exist in and of itself, any more than does the number four. They are each convenient constructs, ideas used as part of theories or theorems, important not so much in and of themselves as they are important in helping to explain or organize not merely themselves, but everything else around them. Do I believe that a bi-polar political spectrum existed somewhere in the Universe, waiting to be discovered and used for the good of humanity? Of course not. But I do believe that to those who only think in two dimensions, the construct of a vaguely general Left/Right might not just be a necessary lemma, but may end up being just about all many citizens are able to comprehend. The problem, then, isn't the spectrum itself. It is the exploitation of that concept, the driving of wedges and the willful conspiracy of ignorance that cause people to become hung up on that which was merely meant to act as a useful explanation. It is instructive that the founders (or at least some of them) did not want to see the rise of political parties in the new nation. They saw the split of office holders into belonging to party A or party B as being contrary to the spirit of true democracy. The truth is, however, that the USA is not a true democracy; it is a representative democracy, and it is further split into three main governmental units: Legislature, Judicial, and Administrative. For some reason it seems to be a natural human tendency to be politically bi-polar, regardless of the natural order of things. I don't know exactly why, it just seems to work out that way, for better or worse, save for the one-party dictatorships of Fascism or Communism, or perhaps the pseudo-democracies like Italy and elsewhere where the real power actually isn't in the elected government but in other social institutions, and the proliferation of multiple small parties tends to lead to political stalemate and power devolves to elsewhere.
The bi-polarness appears to be deeply embedded in human nature: for example, traditional games like chess pit one player against the other; not multiple players in a melee. Similarly, in sports, you have one team (at a time) playing against another. Not multiple teams playing all at once. It does make a certain mathematical sense, despite the political results often being less than optimal.
I don't know that political dualism is anything other than an entry level political position. Many never get beyond that construct. Hell, many never quit even grasp that construct. If I am One, then the next (whatever it is) is Two. One and Two are necessary before I can comprehend Three or More. As to the game or sporting aspect, I am reminded of the Greek Olympics, the Roman chariots and the Steppe horseback riders, and I am not so sure that One v. One was the first or foremost sporting scenario except in the instances when it was.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2020 16:27:57 GMT
You are correct in that I have not made any particular effort to research the "literature" on Libertarian thought (if that is the correct term). I am going mostly by the interactions I've had over the years with those who profess to be libertarians. I cannot help if most of them have come across as smug and impractical.
How many sub-types of Libertarians are there, anyway? So far you have mentioned the "BHL" type. Any other types you'd like to describe?
I picked up on that and I think its going to limit the cogency of your criticism. The fact is few internet keyboard warriors actually read the primary literature. At best, they may read a few articles that introduce these ideas. But you're not going to get a rigorous understanding of anything by simply reading introductory pieces. You have to dig in and read the classics to really understand these ideas. Adam Smith is necessary. So is Menger and Mises and Hayek. And that is not easy reading. But it is rewarding even if you aren't a libertarian. There is a lot in these authors that should appeal to everyone who is interested in politics/economics and social orders. Its not one-dimensional. Its not "individual good, governments bad" type arguments. As for the various sub-types, I doubt I would be able to give an exhaustive list but I will point out a few. You can generally decompose libertarianism into left and right libertarians. Benjamin Tucker and his libertarian socialist - market anarchist tradition is one strain and many people carry this tradition on today. The folks at C4SS like Kevin Carson would be working in this tradition. They published "Markets Not Capitalism" & "The Iron Fist Behind the Invisible Hand." Both are required reading in my view because they help inoculate right libertarian types from believing that capitalism evolved in a context of purity and freedom. Also on the left are Georgist Libertarians, or the folks who follow the ideas of Henry George, specifically his single tax proposal. Right and left libertarians also tend to break ranks on discussions of scientific method. Right libertarians tend to follow Mises and Rothbard and Hoppe and they pushed a method of economic theory firmly rooted in deductive reasoning and logic, almost completely devoid of any role for data, observation, experiments and testing. Left libertarians who studied under Don Lavoie, Peter Boettke and others at GMU are much more eclectic in their method and have followed Hayek into flirting with post-modern doubt about the merit of pure reason and abstract deduction. They have developed a brand of economics rooted in economic fundamentals but also informed by surveys, data, experiments, games and on the ground work in the field. And they are moving beyond pure economic theory, looking at how culture impacts economic decision making, how communities respond to crises and disaster, and how behavioral insights can inform economics. Vernon Smith is the big name there. He married behavioralism with Adam Smith and Hayek in his Nobel winning work in experimental economics. These academics have consciously followed the postmodern themes that were latent in Mises and have incorporated it in a more explicit manner. These postmodern libertarians are folks like Deirdre McCloskey, Don Lavoie and Chris Sciabarra. Ludwig Lachmann is considered by some to be one of the originators of this left turn in libertarianism. Rothbard says it is nihilistic (a refutation of truth, or the ability to know it at all). I think he's mistaken. On the right, you have paleos like Rothbard, Rockwell, Hoppe, Woods, etc. They are mainly centered in Auburn at the Mises Inst. These folks have a war brewing with the Koch funded libertarian groups, such as FEE, Cato, IHS, GMU, etc. Its largely a cultural thing. The Mises Inst folks wanted an alliance with the right and pushed a more conservative version of libertarianism to make the alliance work and poach conservatives into the movement. This is why the Ron Paul newsletters demonized young black men, gays, AIDS research, and immigrants. The rest of the movement wasn't having it and a little civil war started. Its still brewing and periodically a new skirmish breaks out. A recent movement split that you may or may not heard of involved Jeffrey Tucker leaving the Mises Inst and publishing his important article about libertarian brutalism, thick vs thin conceptions of liberty. He saw the limits of the "thin" approach that was being pushed by the right libertarians. Essentially, the idea the thin people promote is that if a person does not initiate violence or support the initiation of violence, he can be as much of a bigot as he wants and still be a libertarian. All that matters to libertarianism is the NAP and whether or not naked force is being used. Ergo a covenant community of people who cut off gays and minorities from associating could still be considered libertarians. J Tuck and the thick libertarians pushed back and argued that liberty would not thrive in a culture of hate and separation. In short, libertarianism cannot be a "liberty for me and not for thee" doctrine without undermining the context that makes liberty possible- the open and plural society. Tucker argued that libertarianism is necessarily liberal. And I think he won the day. I also want to mention the Ostroms (Lin just won the Nobel) and their work on community resource management. Before them, we thought in dualistic terms: private property or communal property (which suffers from a tragedy of the commons). The Ostroms showed how community resource management strategies emerge, bottom up, using empirical research, and then busted the narrative that private property was necessary to solve the commons problem. That's huge. And its left-wing. There is a new group on the scene, the "Niskanen Center." Brink Lindsey, an ex-Cato analyst, started this new think tank and situated it in DC so as to be close to the action. They promote "state-capacity libertarianism" which basically means small government is not the goal, effective government is. The rest of the liberty movement tends to see these folks as too friendly with the state, essentially forgetting about the dispersed cost/concentrated benefit problem. They seem to deserve the moniker "belt-way libertarians" that was previously laid at the feet of the Cato Institute. To wrap this up, I hope I have made it clear that libertarians are not a monolith and that the struggle between left and right, liberal and illiberal, which characterizes so much of politics, is also a struggle that features prominently in libertarianism itself.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2020 16:40:09 GMT
Seems to me there is an essential conundrum in the statement, "Individuals are not always good. That's why we need a rule of law and a state to help protect civil rights. It's also why we are concerned with limiting government." It lies in the dilemma that all too often those who propose limiting government are doing so for selfish reasons, and their resultant activities more often than not may result in not only erosion of civil rights but economic oppression.
Yes, there can be bad individuals in government. Sometimes in positions of great power. But... that's why we have elections, free speech protections, and a media with the ability to help expose governmental abuses. Does it always work? Obviously considering who's in the Oval Office at the moment, no. Could it be improved? Yes, but constitutional amendments are a long and arduous process. Personally I think a parliamentary system would meet our nation's needs better than our relatively broken bicameral legislature combined with a near monarchical presidency. But it is what it is, and I don't see it changing in my lifetime.
I don't see the problem. Both concerns are legit. Libertarians, to the extent we are consistent, would oppose any limits on government which are done for selfish reasons, or which erode civil rights. That should be obvious and something all people can agree on. But we go one step further. We have a lesson to teach about rent seeking and exploitation of man by man as a function of government policy. And its a lesson that hasn't been fully absorbed by many people on the left, to the detriment of some of the most vulnerable and fragile people on the planet. The phenomenon of dispersed costs and concentrated benefits that the public choice school points to is a real threat to socially beneficial policy outcomes and cannot be overcome by putting the right people in government, or having elections or free speech, or a free media. Those things help and are essential. But they don't solve this problem. In fact, there probably is no solution to it. At best we can be aware of it and act accordingly. But one take away is that some problems might not be solved at the level of the policy maker, but rather may require a DIY, community-based approach (mutual aid for example). Another strategy would be to spend less time focusing directly on political outcomes (which are more often than not decided by special interest pleading and $$$) and instead focus on shaping the broader culture and beliefs, so we that that future context we decide these problems in does not look like today.
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Post by limey² on Jun 20, 2020 17:18:09 GMT
Oh and your one dimensional tortured rendition is supposed to be a neutral view? Sorry, what you are offering here is eye-roll worthy. There is plenty to criticize libertarians for and your point does strike some of the relevant notes. But to reduce all of libertarianism to a "liberty for me, not for thee" position is overly simplistic and therefore wrong. There are libertarians and classical liberals, past and present, which do NOT fit this characterization. They are the exact opposite. They are bleeding heart types. But to hear you tell it, they must not exist. We shouldn't let the missteps of the paleolibertarians (Lew Rockwell, Tom Woods, Late Rothbard, Hoppe) own libertarianism and discredit the entire idea. Where did I claim to be neutral?
I don't consider myself to be a libertarian. Nor a classical liberal, which I gather is pretty much the same thing, at least in the UK.
So you, with some wording expressing contempt, dismiss libertarians who actually do care as "bleeding heart types" of libertarians. OK, care to mention any actual people?
What I find strange is that you also slice and dice libertarians into smaller and smaller segments, such as "bleeding heart types", and "paleolibertarians", in an attempt to avoid any overall criticism of the libertarian philosophy, if such actually exists beyond "big government bad, individuals good". And that perhaps highlights the entire contradiction within libertarianism. If big government is so bad, then where does that leave the bleeding heart libertarians who you admit exist, in cases where small government has utterly failed to address serious problems? And if individuals are always good, where does that leave those individuals with private power and wealth who actively seek to hurt and demean the less fortunate via economic methods?
Yeah, I know, you'll say that government is OK but only for certain things, like national defense. Where I your Occam's Razor to determine which parts of government are OK and which are not? And, more importantly, what is your stand on the need for government to put a limit to the abuses of powerful non-governmental individuals whose activities result in pain, suffering, degradation, and oppression of the people?
Or are you just going to adopt the smug and ineffectual, libertarian mantra, "big government bad"?
Arguably, the complex and difficult mashup of Liberalism and Conservatism that finds its home in the UK Conservative party is the reason for its remarkable success over 2 centuries and its constant internal warfare. These two distinct political/philosophical positions are unified and get all the votes for both. The remaining positions- centre left, hard left, Christian Democrat (your "liberals") and various Nationalists share the remaining votes and rarely get to form a Government.
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Odysseus
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Post by Odysseus on Jun 20, 2020 19:47:57 GMT
Arguably, the complex and difficult mashup of Liberalism and Conservatism that finds its home in the UK Conservative party is the reason for its remarkable success over 2 centuries and its constant internal warfare. These two distinct political/philosophical positions are unified and get all the votes for both. The remaining positions- centre left, hard left, Christian Democrat (your "liberals") and various Nationalists share the remaining votes and rarely get to form a Government. More's the pity.
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