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Post by Mercy for All on Jul 14, 2020 19:39:40 GMT
That being said, do you believe that you are, because of your Christian beliefs, destined for a blissful Heaven Eternal, while others who don't share your beliefs, are destined to equally eternal Hell and damnation? And if you do, how much latitude is there in your personal Christianity? Are Protestants more likely to see Heaven than Catholics? What for you constitutes and guarantees salvation? Great questions! I appreciate you asking and I appreciate even more the opportunity to answer them. "Who gets to go to heaven, since that's what being a Christian is about?" Okay, so if you read through the New Testament, when there is a challenge to "obey God" or "follow Jesus" or whatever, heaven is never really offered as the incentive or prize. The ultimate "aim" of the New Testament is the fulfilling of the Old Testament expectations that go all the way back to Genesis 1, where God "walked in the Garden" with Adam and Eve. God's purpose for humanity is to live with humans (not to "take humans to heaven to live with him"): 1) God rescued the Israelite slaves from Egypt not just in answer to their cries of despair, but so they could "worship him in the wilderness"--where they established all of the laws, the tabernacle, sacrifices, etc., that would enable them to live with him in their presence. 2) When Solomon built the Temple, God deigned to "live there" although he doesn't require a building created by human hands. 3) When Israel was removed from the Promised Land, it wasn't just their removal, but God's presence left the Temple (as per Ezekiel). The promises of Isaiah were that one day God would return (promises that the New Testament writers applied to Jesus). 4) Explicit in the Lord's Prayer is the request that "God's Kingdom would come," not that we would leave. 5) The climax of Revelation, the last book of the Bible, has "heaven coming down to earth," fulfilling all the promises and expectations from the very beginning. Again, none of the New Testament "gospel preaching" carries with it the offer to "go to heaven when we die." Okay...what about "eternal life"? Sure...somewhat. "Eternal life" is a John phrase, used almost equivalently to the "Kingdom of God" in the Synoptics (actually, Matthew uses "Kingdom of Heaven" as a Jewish euphemism, likely to avoid using "God" casually, and this unfortunately sets us up to understand "Kingdom of God" as "heaven" because we're culturally removed. Better to read "Kingdom of Heaven" as "Kingdom of God"). The Roman Catholic Church over time emphasized the almost Gnostic idea of an immaterial spiritual heaven that was so perfect that purgatory was required to "purge us" of whatever sin was left over (actually denying to some extent the efficacy of Jesus' sacrifice, which is a whole other topic). Generally speaking, the Reformers rejected the idea of purgatory as "unbiblical" but (accidentally?) retained the idea of that immaterial spiritual heaven at the expense of the biblical idea of "heaven coming to earth." So..."live forever"? Sure. But that's hardly "it." The point is God restoring all things and making all things right. For everybody? Some people think so...a minority (in other words, God's love is so powerful that ultimately it is irresistible). But we have Platonized Christianity, adopting an "eternal soul" view, which just isn't really in there. First of all, our image of "hell" comes more from Dante than scripture. Flames? Okay...that is "lake of fire" imagery, but Revelation says that hell and death are destroyed in the lake of fire...so...? Jesus uses the term "outer darkness"...so...black flames? Yes, extreme literalists have postulated black flames in the desperate attempt to avoid any metaphor whatsoever. Oh, you can read about "eternal torment" which is more likely "eternal punishment" or "eternal destruction" in the original language--which evokes an idea of "permanence" rather than "perpetuation." I really like C.S. Lewis's idea that if we refuse to say "your will be done" then he will say to us, " your will be done," i.e., we reap the natural consequences of our rejection of God/goodness. Still begs the question, who "gets in" and who is "cast out"? Ultimately, that's up to God. For some people, it's about acquiescing verbally to the right set of propositions and that's it. "I believe that Jesus is the Son of God." Big frickin' deal. What does that even mean? If it's just words you're saying and you can't explain what it means and it has no impact on your life, it's meaningless. The biblical idea of "faith" (Gr., pistis) is both belief/trust/faith and faith fulness. A legitimate idea gaining popularity lately is the idea that the best single word to describe faith today is allegiance (like: "fealty"). "Jesus is Lord" is the central idea of Christianity--the one who deserves our loyalty. Honestly, regardless of what you believe about the Trinity or ordinances or even his divinity? There's a lot of leeway there...Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox, whatever. Frankly, I don't even think those labels mean much in the grand scheme of things. It has become pretty apparent that you can be a "member in good standing" in a church or denomination and be so corrupt that any allegiance to Jesus himself is completely absent, certainly compared to demonstrated allegiances to money or the pursuit of power or self-interest at the expense of certain people groups or whatever. What I have a harder time grasping (but I think there's something there) is this: What about those that have not rejected Jesus, but have rejected a caricature of him? Who have rejected a "white Jesus toting a bazooka who is just itching to blow away the Muslims and the gays, etc." or the "Republican Jesus" or the "Democrat Jesus" or the "anti-science Jesus" (there's a whole conversation there about each one of those Jesuses...Jesi?). What about those who have rejected the name of Jesus but have accepted and adopted allegiance to the Name of Jesus--his character, his self-sacrificial love, his resurrection life, even if they don't identify it with the historical crucified/resurrected Jewish Messiah, because the latter has been so distorted to them as to be unrecognizable? How's that for a response? I welcome responses to my response...
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bama beau
Legend
Fish will piss anywhere. They just live in water.
Posts: 11,579
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Post by bama beau on Jul 14, 2020 19:46:23 GMT
That being said, do you believe that you are, because of your Christian beliefs, destined for a blissful Heaven Eternal, while others who don't share your beliefs, are destined to equally eternal Hell and damnation? And if you do, how much latitude is there in your personal Christianity? Are Protestants more likely to see Heaven than Catholics? What for you constitutes and guarantees salvation? Great questions! I appreciate you asking and I appreciate even more the opportunity to answer them. "Who gets to go to heaven, since that's what being a Christian is about?" Okay, so if you read through the New Testament, when there is a challenge to "obey God" or "follow Jesus" or whatever, heaven is never really offered as the incentive or prize. The ultimate "aim" of the New Testament is the fulfilling of the Old Testament expectations that go all the way back to Genesis 1, where God "walked in the Garden" with Adam and Eve. God's purpose for humanity is to live with humans (not to "take humans to heaven to live with him"): 1) God rescued the Israelite slaves from Egypt not just in answer to their cries of despair, but so they could "worship him in the wilderness"--where they established all of the laws, the tabernacle, sacrifices, etc., that would enable them to live with him in their presence. 2) When Solomon built the Temple, God deigned to "live there" although he doesn't require a building created by human hands. 3) When Israel was removed from the Promised Land, it wasn't just their removal, but God's presence left the Temple (as per Ezekiel). The promises of Isaiah were that one day God would return (promises that the New Testament writers applied to Jesus). 4) Explicit in the Lord's Prayer is the request that "God's Kingdom would come," not that we would leave. 5) The climax of Revelation, the last book of the Bible, has "heaven coming down to earth," fulfilling all the promises and expectations from the very beginning. Again, none of the New Testament "gospel preaching" carries with it the offer to "go to heaven when we die." Okay...what about "eternal life"? Sure...somewhat. "Eternal life" is a John phrase, used almost equivalently to the "Kingdom of God" in the Synoptics (actually, Matthew uses "Kingdom of Heaven" as a Jewish euphemism, likely to avoid using "God" casually, and this unfortunately sets us up to understand "Kingdom of God" as "heaven" because we're culturally removed. Better to read "Kingdom of Heaven" as "Kingdom of God"). The Roman Catholic Church over time emphasized the almost Gnostic idea of an immaterial spiritual heaven that was so perfect that purgatory was required to "purge us" of whatever sin was left over (actually denying to some extent the efficacy of Jesus' sacrifice, which is a whole other topic). Generally speaking, the Reformers rejected the idea of purgatory as "unbiblical" but (accidentally?) retained the idea of that immaterial spiritual heaven at the expense of the biblical idea of "heaven coming to earth." So..."live forever"? Sure. But that's hardly "it." The point is God restoring all things and making all things right. For everybody? Some people think so...a minority (in other words, God's love is so powerful that ultimately it is irresistible). But we have Platonized Christianity, adopting an "eternal soul" view, which just isn't really in there. First of all, our image of "hell" comes more from Dante than scripture. Flames? Okay...that is "lake of fire" imagery, but Revelation says that hell and death are destroyed in the lake of fire...so...? Jesus uses the term "outer darkness"...so...black flames? Yes, extreme literalists have postulated black flames in the desperate attempt to avoid any metaphor whatsoever. Oh, you can read about "eternal torment" which is more likely "eternal punishment" or "eternal destruction" in the original language--which evokes an idea of "permanence" rather than "perpetuation." I really like C.S. Lewis's idea that if we refuse to say "your will be done" then he will say to us, " your will be done," i.e., we reap the natural consequences of our rejection of God/goodness. Still begs the question, who "gets in" and who is "cast out"? Ultimately, that's up to God. For some people, it's about acquiescing verbally to the right set of propositions and that's it. "I believe that Jesus is the Son of God." Big frickin' deal. What does that even mean? If it's just words you're saying and you can't explain what it means and it has no impact on your life, it's meaningless. The biblical idea of "faith" (Gr., pistis) is both belief/trust/faith and faith fulness. A legitimate idea gaining popularity lately is the idea that the best single word to describe faith today is allegiance (like: "fealty"). "Jesus is Lord" is the central idea of Christianity--the one who deserves our loyalty. Honestly, regardless of what you believe about the Trinity or ordinances or even his divinity? There's a lot of leeway there...Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox, whatever. Frankly, I don't even think those labels mean much in the grand scheme of things. It has become pretty apparent that you can be a "member in good standing" in a church or denomination and be so corrupt that any allegiance to Jesus himself is completely absent, certainly compared to demonstrated allegiances to money or the pursuit of power or self-interest at the expense of certain people groups or whatever. What I have a harder time grasping (but I think there's something there) is this: What about those that have not rejected Jesus, but have rejected a caricature of him? Who have rejected a "white Jesus toting a bazooka who is just itching to blow away the Muslims and the gays, etc." or the "Republican Jesus" or the "Democrat Jesus" or the "anti-science Jesus" (there's a whole conversation there about each one of those Jesuses...Jesi?). What about those who have rejected the name of Jesus but have accepted and adopted allegiance to the Name of Jesus--his character, his self-sacrificial love, his resurrection life, even if they don't identify it with the historical crucified/resurrected Jewish Messiah, because the latter has been so distorted to them as to be unrecognizable? How's that for a response? I welcome responses to my response... You are an asset to this or any forum.
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Post by Mercy for All on Jul 14, 2020 19:47:00 GMT
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bama beau
Legend
Fish will piss anywhere. They just live in water.
Posts: 11,579
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Post by bama beau on Jul 14, 2020 19:54:05 GMT
I needed a ride into Bethlehem.
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Post by Mercy for All on Jul 14, 2020 20:00:53 GMT
I needed a ride into Bethlehem. You are not permitted to ride me...
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Post by jasmine on Jul 14, 2020 20:26:18 GMT
It seems pretty clear that any individual who accepts and follows Jesus as Lord and Savior will go to Heaven. If you truly do that, everything else - repentance, love, faith, etc. - will naturally follow.
Everyone who doesn’t will be condemned to eternal death.
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Post by Mercy for All on Jul 14, 2020 21:19:56 GMT
It seems pretty clear that any individual who accepts and follows Jesus as Lord and Savior will go to Heaven. If you truly do that, everything else - repentance, love, faith, etc. - will naturally follow. Everyone who doesn’t will be condemned to eternal death. What does "accept" mean? Savior? Saved from what? What does Lord mean? What does "follow Jesus" mean?
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bama beau
Legend
Fish will piss anywhere. They just live in water.
Posts: 11,579
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Post by bama beau on Jul 14, 2020 21:26:58 GMT
I needed a ride into Bethlehem. You are not permitted to ride me... If you must be an ass, be a bad ass.
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bama beau
Legend
Fish will piss anywhere. They just live in water.
Posts: 11,579
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Post by bama beau on Jul 14, 2020 21:28:35 GMT
It seems pretty clear that any individual who accepts and follows Jesus as Lord and Savior will go to Heaven. If you truly do that, everything else - repentance, love, faith, etc. - will naturally follow. Everyone who doesn’t will be condemned to eternal death. "Seems pretty clear"? You're betting an eternity on "seems pretty clear"?
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Post by jasmine on Jul 14, 2020 22:41:38 GMT
It seems pretty clear that any individual who accepts and follows Jesus as Lord and Savior will go to Heaven. If you truly do that, everything else - repentance, love, faith, etc. - will naturally follow. Everyone who doesn’t will be condemned to eternal death. What does "accept" mean? Savior? Saved from what? What does Lord mean? What does "follow Jesus" mean? Accept Jesus into your heart and believe that He is the living Son of God. Saved from eternal hell and damnation. Be obedient to His teachings and Word.
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Post by jasmine on Jul 14, 2020 22:42:29 GMT
It seems pretty clear that any individual who accepts and follows Jesus as Lord and Savior will go to Heaven. If you truly do that, everything else - repentance, love, faith, etc. - will naturally follow. Everyone who doesn’t will be condemned to eternal death. "Seems pretty clear"? You're betting an eternity on "seems pretty clear"? I meant “pretty clear” in relation to Mercy’s complicated OP.
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Post by Mercy for All on Jul 14, 2020 23:42:56 GMT
Accept Jesus into your heart... What does that mean? Like...he's living in the right ventricle or something? But what does that mean? I mean, I don't think either of us would agree that God the Father had sex with Mary...so what does it mean to be the "living Son of God"? And what might be the implications? Well, part of my post is that the Bible doesn't really say that... I mean, it might be a part, but if it is, it's a pretty small part--compared to everything else that is said... What is his "Word"?
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Post by jasmine on Jul 15, 2020 0:07:03 GMT
Accept Jesus into your heart... What does that mean? Like...he's living in the right ventricle or something? But what does that mean? I mean, I don't think either of us would agree that God the Father had sex with Mary...so what does it mean to be the "living Son of God"? And what might be the implications? Well, part of my post is that the Bible doesn't really say that... I mean, it might be a part, but if it is, it's a pretty small part--compared to everything else that is said... What is his "Word"? Dude. You’re giving me a headache.
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bama beau
Legend
Fish will piss anywhere. They just live in water.
Posts: 11,579
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Post by bama beau on Jul 15, 2020 4:41:02 GMT
What does that mean? Like...he's living in the right ventricle or something? But what does that mean? I mean, I don't think either of us would agree that God the Father had sex with Mary...so what does it mean to be the "living Son of God"? And what might be the implications? Well, part of my post is that the Bible doesn't really say that... I mean, it might be a part, but if it is, it's a pretty small part--compared to everything else that is said... What is his "Word"? Dude. You’re giving me a headache. Isn't he wonderful? He didn't want me moving to Canada of course, but then, who can truly blame him?
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Post by Mercy for All on Jul 15, 2020 12:50:10 GMT
All right, let's do some of these. Accept Jesus into your heart... What does that mean? Like...he's living in the right ventricle or something? This phrase is relatively recent, historically speaking. I suppose it comes from the idea of giving Jesus influence to the centre of your being or something, but could be as simple as cherishing him. Informed by our individualistic culture, this whole "asking Jesus in our hearts" can reduce "following Jesus" to "loving him" (and still doing what we choose), but even worse, it's sometimes just a phrase that people use without even thinking about what it means. Even for little kids, that's not really helpful. I mean it's not "wrong," per se, but it's not helpful if it's "just words." This is an interesting one. Because in the Old Testament, Israel was called "God's son." Israel was the beginning of the fulfillment of God's promise to Abraham ("I will make you a great nation") that would be his solution for the evil/brokenness of the world ("Through you all people will be blessed"). But Israel repeatedly disqualified themselves by their unfaithfulness to the God that rescued them from Egypt and by affirming their ethnic purity at the expense of their role of being a blessing for the whole world. When Jesus claimed to be the "Son of God" (or when the claim was made about him), the claim was that he was the "true Israel," the true solution for the world. Even more interesting, by the time Jesus actually comes on the scene, Caesar is claiming divinity--specifically, claiming to be the "Son of God" (and "prince of peace," for that matter). So to claim that Jesus is the "Son of God" is to make a political claim that makes him the rival of Caesar. This one is interesting because the Bible says that Jesus himself is "the Word." Typically in North America, the term is used to mean "the Bible," which isn't clear. Certainly God's revelation to humans (his "message to us") in general is called his word. But the most important "message" is Jesus himself. I would say that most Christians in North America have almost deified the Bible over Jesus himself, especially when giving priority to some stuff in the Old Testament over the character, actions, and teaching of Jesus himself.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2020 16:55:54 GMT
That being said, do you believe that you are, because of your Christian beliefs, destined for a blissful Heaven Eternal, while others who don't share your beliefs, are destined to equally eternal Hell and damnation? And if you do, how much latitude is there in your personal Christianity? Are Protestants more likely to see Heaven than Catholics? What for you constitutes and guarantees salvation? Great questions! I appreciate you asking and I appreciate even more the opportunity to answer them. "Who gets to go to heaven, since that's what being a Christian is about?" Okay, so if you read through the New Testament, when there is a challenge to "obey God" or "follow Jesus" or whatever, heaven is never really offered as the incentive or prize. The ultimate "aim" of the New Testament is the fulfilling of the Old Testament expectations that go all the way back to Genesis 1, where God "walked in the Garden" with Adam and Eve. God's purpose for humanity is to live with humans (not to "take humans to heaven to live with him"): 1) God rescued the Israelite slaves from Egypt not just in answer to their cries of despair, but so they could "worship him in the wilderness"--where they established all of the laws, the tabernacle, sacrifices, etc., that would enable them to live with him in their presence. 2) When Solomon built the Temple, God deigned to "live there" although he doesn't require a building created by human hands. 3) When Israel was removed from the Promised Land, it wasn't just their removal, but God's presence left the Temple (as per Ezekiel). The promises of Isaiah were that one day God would return (promises that the New Testament writers applied to Jesus). 4) Explicit in the Lord's Prayer is the request that "God's Kingdom would come," not that we would leave. 5) The climax of Revelation, the last book of the Bible, has "heaven coming down to earth," fulfilling all the promises and expectations from the very beginning. Again, none of the New Testament "gospel preaching" carries with it the offer to "go to heaven when we die." Okay...what about "eternal life"? Sure...somewhat. "Eternal life" is a John phrase, used almost equivalently to the "Kingdom of God" in the Synoptics (actually, Matthew uses "Kingdom of Heaven" as a Jewish euphemism, likely to avoid using "God" casually, and this unfortunately sets us up to understand "Kingdom of God" as "heaven" because we're culturally removed. Better to read "Kingdom of Heaven" as "Kingdom of God"). The Roman Catholic Church over time emphasized the almost Gnostic idea of an immaterial spiritual heaven that was so perfect that purgatory was required to "purge us" of whatever sin was left over (actually denying to some extent the efficacy of Jesus' sacrifice, which is a whole other topic). Generally speaking, the Reformers rejected the idea of purgatory as "unbiblical" but (accidentally?) retained the idea of that immaterial spiritual heaven at the expense of the biblical idea of "heaven coming to earth." So..."live forever"? Sure. But that's hardly "it." The point is God restoring all things and making all things right. For everybody? Some people think so...a minority (in other words, God's love is so powerful that ultimately it is irresistible). But we have Platonized Christianity, adopting an "eternal soul" view, which just isn't really in there. First of all, our image of "hell" comes more from Dante than scripture. Flames? Okay...that is "lake of fire" imagery, but Revelation says that hell and death are destroyed in the lake of fire...so...? Jesus uses the term "outer darkness"...so...black flames? Yes, extreme literalists have postulated black flames in the desperate attempt to avoid any metaphor whatsoever. Oh, you can read about "eternal torment" which is more likely "eternal punishment" or "eternal destruction" in the original language--which evokes an idea of "permanence" rather than "perpetuation." I really like C.S. Lewis's idea that if we refuse to say "your will be done" then he will say to us, " your will be done," i.e., we reap the natural consequences of our rejection of God/goodness. Still begs the question, who "gets in" and who is "cast out"? Ultimately, that's up to God. For some people, it's about acquiescing verbally to the right set of propositions and that's it. "I believe that Jesus is the Son of God." Big frickin' deal. What does that even mean? If it's just words you're saying and you can't explain what it means and it has no impact on your life, it's meaningless. The biblical idea of "faith" (Gr., pistis) is both belief/trust/faith and faith fulness. A legitimate idea gaining popularity lately is the idea that the best single word to describe faith today is allegiance (like: "fealty"). "Jesus is Lord" is the central idea of Christianity--the one who deserves our loyalty. Honestly, regardless of what you believe about the Trinity or ordinances or even his divinity? There's a lot of leeway there...Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox, whatever. Frankly, I don't even think those labels mean much in the grand scheme of things. It has become pretty apparent that you can be a "member in good standing" in a church or denomination and be so corrupt that any allegiance to Jesus himself is completely absent, certainly compared to demonstrated allegiances to money or the pursuit of power or self-interest at the expense of certain people groups or whatever. What I have a harder time grasping (but I think there's something there) is this: What about those that have not rejected Jesus, but have rejected a caricature of him? Who have rejected a "white Jesus toting a bazooka who is just itching to blow away the Muslims and the gays, etc." or the "Republican Jesus" or the "Democrat Jesus" or the "anti-science Jesus" (there's a whole conversation there about each one of those Jesuses...Jesi?). What about those who have rejected the name of Jesus but have accepted and adopted allegiance to the Name of Jesus--his character, his self-sacrificial love, his resurrection life, even if they don't identify it with the historical crucified/resurrected Jewish Messiah, because the latter has been so distorted to them as to be unrecognizable? How's that for a response? I welcome responses to my response... Here's my response to your "response": What?
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Post by Mercy for All on Jul 15, 2020 18:09:08 GMT
Here's my response to your "response": What? Really? Was it that unintelligible?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2020 20:54:39 GMT
Here's my response to your "response": What? Really? Was it that unintelligible? No eternal life!!! What's the point of religion if my life is gonna end? I mean why should I care that "there's a god" if I am going to get the same oblivion, I will, if there isn't? Seems like a tedious, onerous waste of time and energy to me.
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Post by Mercy for All on Jul 15, 2020 21:43:04 GMT
No eternal life!!! What's the point of religion if my life is gonna end? I mean why should I care that "there's a god" if I am going to get the same oblivion, I will, if there isn't? Seems like a tedious, onerous waste of time and energy to me. I think you missed part of the point. It's not that there isn't "eternal life," it's that it's not just "living forever." The great hope of Christianity is resurrection and the ultimate victory effected by the cross is the defeat of death.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2020 21:57:04 GMT
No eternal life!!! What's the point of religion if my life is gonna end? I mean why should I care that "there's a god" if I am going to get the same oblivion, I will, if there isn't? Seems like a tedious, onerous waste of time and energy to me. I think you missed part of the point. It's not that there isn't "eternal life," it's that it's not just "living forever." The great hope of Christianity is resurrection and the ultimate victory effected by the cross is the defeat of death. You're not making much sense. "Defeat of death" or "live forever"... Pretty much the same thing... It's like saying. I don't want to be rich, I just want to defeat my inability to buy things that I like... That's called rhetorical bullshit.
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