Odysseus
Legend
Trump = Disaster
Posts: 41,104
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Post by Odysseus on Jul 14, 2020 1:02:09 GMT
Even at the lower level of 0.65% IFR, that's still at least 6-1/2 times the IFR for seasonal flu (0.1%).
Not that I agree that the IFR for Covid-19 will be as low as 0.65%, but my opinion is not the issue here.
I am using Zombie Bunny's own figures.
And still he fails.
Whall, at least he's consistent in that.
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Post by Lomelis on Jul 14, 2020 2:18:27 GMT
Well said. Particularly the part about how the virus will ravage the economy regardless. That's the subtle point that is getting lost in the debate. Yes, shutdowns and social distancing are costly. But so is doing nothing. There is no option C where we get to avoid economic devastation. This piece is absolute garbage. First it assumes 100% infection of the populace (even the author acknowledges this is not realistic). So why use a number like that at all? Could have easily done the math using a more reasonable estimate based on herd immunity. So right off the bat his numbers would be over estimated by anywhere from 10-20%. And why 1% anyways when the IFR is estimated to be 30-50% lower...seems like this whole piece is designed to fearmonger. Then he extrapolates further that there would be 19 hospitalizations per death. Of course if you are 10-20% off on the number of deaths then he would be that number X 19 off on the estimated number of hospitalizations. Third, if we are going to look at the rates of death and hospitalizations and use that to estimate the economic impact then we need to look at the people who are dying and being hospitalized and their true economic cost. His numbers are based on an average across the whole population and we -know- that is not what is happening with covid. The elderly and those with other serious health issues comprise a large proportion of those who are hospitalized and those who die. A large proportion of these people would be hospitalized or would die from one of their other ailments anyways. And yes, there very well could have opened the economy or kept it open without it being destroyed considering that a huge proportion of the infected working age population would be either asymptomatic or only ever have mild symptoms.
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Post by rabbitreborn on Jul 14, 2020 7:47:52 GMT
Even at the lower level of 0.65% IFR, that's still at least 6-1/2 times the IFR for seasonal flu (0.1%).
Not that I agree that the IFR for Covid-19 will be as low as 0.65%, but my opinion is not the issue here.
I am using Zombie Bunny's own figures.
And still he fails.
Whall, at least he's consistent in that.
As explained, they are not “my figures”. They are the CDC’s most recent “best estimate” of IFR.
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Post by rabbitreborn on Jul 14, 2020 7:56:40 GMT
You called 1% “very conservative”. Why? Who is programming you people to always assume the absolute worst, even worse than the “experts” they’re telling everybody to listen to while they also ignore those same experts?
Because I've read enough to know a lot of experts also consider it conservative.
People are ignoring common sense measures to prevent the spread of disease. The number can only increase especially as hospitals are put to their limits as they are in several states now.
(Conjecture and personal opinion which I do not expect you to accept.)
Besides that my intuition and common sense tells me and with growing evidence there are long term effects of covid that could increase it's mortality far into the future. There's real way to account for this because we just don't know what the future holds.
Care to answer cadescove's question now?
The CDC’s Best Estimate on IFR can certainly drop lower. “Best estimate” doesn’t mean best case scenario. The real issue is understanding overall impact to society is figuring out who has had it already, who has some level of immunity (potentially from exposure to other coronavirus infections), etc. These things are just not known. What we do know is that for the whole country, new cases are up ~150-200% since April / May, and yet deaths are down 60-70%. This is certainly indicative that the CFR was WAAAAY too high back then to give an accurate view of IFR, because the virus was far more widespread than people knew.
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Odysseus
Legend
Trump = Disaster
Posts: 41,104
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Post by Odysseus on Jul 14, 2020 8:20:56 GMT
Even at the lower level of 0.65% IFR, that's still at least 6-1/2 times the IFR for seasonal flu (0.1%).
Not that I agree that the IFR for Covid-19 will be as low as 0.65%, but my opinion is not the issue here.
I am using Zombie Bunny's own figures.
And still he fails.
Whall, at least he's consistent in that.
As explained, they are not “my figures”. They are the CDC’s most recent “best estimate” of IFR.
Look at Zombie Bunny hop around, avoiding the truth with each leap.
I don't give a flying FLUCK who you say the figures are. They are figures that YOU advanced here, as part of YOUR argument. Now you're being a sleazeball and disowning them. Typical.
Come back when you're ready to be honest.
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Post by rabbitreborn on Jul 14, 2020 8:50:26 GMT
As explained, they are not “my figures”. They are the CDC’s most recent “best estimate” of IFR.
Look at Zombie Bunny hop around, avoiding the truth with each leap.
I don't give a flying FLUCK who you say the figures are. They are figures that YOU advanced here, as part of YOUR argument. Now you're being a sleazeball and disowning them. Typical.
Come back when you're ready to be honest.
I think the IFR will turn out to be lower. My point was that atreyu said that 1% fatality was “very conservative”, meaning it could likely be higher. I brought out the CDC’s “best estimate”, because that’s the organization that you all say we should be listening to. And it’s substantially below 1%. It’s not my number. I think it will be lower. I’m making it clear that this is the CDC’s number. There is nothing dishonest about that.
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Odysseus
Legend
Trump = Disaster
Posts: 41,104
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Post by Odysseus on Jul 14, 2020 9:16:13 GMT
Look at Zombie Bunny hop around, avoiding the truth with each leap.
I don't give a flying FLUCK who you say the figures are. They are figures that YOU advanced here, as part of YOUR argument. Now you're being a sleazeball and disowning them. Typical.
Come back when you're ready to be honest.
I think the IFR will turn out to be lower. My point was that atreyu said that 1% fatality was “very conservative”, meaning it could likely be higher. I brought out the CDC’s “best estimate”, because that’s the organization that you all say we should be listening to. And it’s substantially below 1%. It’s not my number. I think it will be lower. I’m making it clear that this is the CDC’s number. There is nothing dishonest about that.
Sigh.
It's a greased bunny.
1% or .65%, it's still more than SIX TIMES MORE LETHAL than the flu.
Clearly you are not playing with a full deck.
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Post by rabbitreborn on Jul 14, 2020 9:33:43 GMT
I think the IFR will turn out to be lower. My point was that atreyu said that 1% fatality was “very conservative”, meaning it could likely be higher. I brought out the CDC’s “best estimate”, because that’s the organization that you all say we should be listening to. And it’s substantially below 1%. It’s not my number. I think it will be lower. I’m making it clear that this is the CDC’s number. There is nothing dishonest about that.
Sigh.
It's a greased bunny.
1% or .65%, it's still more than SIX TIMES MORE LETHAL than the flu.
Clearly you are not playing with a full deck.
This is changing the subject completely. You and others used to talk about how it is 50 times more lethal. But now it’s down to 6, right? Is this the final answer? What if it’s only 3 times? Still shut everything down? Because some very smart people are saying it’s between .2 and .3. Where is the cutoff? How many foreign people have to die of starvation from economic shutdowns to save one 80 year old American? 50? 500? How much economic devastation, leading to mental health issues, suicide, malnutrition, substance abuse, undiagnosed medical conditions, makes it worthwhile? You’re acting as if deaths from Covid are the only things worth preventing at any cost. It’s a fundamentalist belief you’re buying in to.
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