|
Post by atreyu on Sept 8, 2024 19:42:43 GMT
You're not answering the actual question. Why do you want to encode these abilities in court to enforce presidential power. I don’t. But they are informally encoded. Once again, do you think paying off Stormy Daniels is the first and most egregious crime performed by a president?
No, by formally encoding them do you think it helps or worsens the situation? Leading right back to the original question.
Edit:
Let me go further. I don't think killing United States citizens is as grievous as setting up fake electors to steal the election of a free and fair election, or stealing national nuclear secrets and sticking them in the bathroom. Let me explain -- the later affects the United States and it's population as a whole and can fundamentally shift the direction of the United States. Do not take this that other crimes should not be prosecuted. That's not my position at all.
What I'm NOT saying is that we can hold presidents to account to ALL laws. This isn't a OR, it's an AND.
|
|
|
Post by rabbitreborn on Sept 8, 2024 19:50:40 GMT
I don’t. But they are informally encoded. Once again, do you think paying off Stormy Daniels is the first and most egregious crime performed by a president?
No, by formally encoding them do you think it helps or worsens the situation? Leading right back to the original question.
Based on history, it would have no practical impact. Impeachment has been and will remain the only way to start a process which will punish a president.
|
|
|
Post by atreyu on Sept 8, 2024 19:53:02 GMT
No, by formally encoding them do you think it helps or worsens the situation? Leading right back to the original question.
Based on history, it would have no practical impact. Impeachment has been and will remain the only way to start a process which will punish a president.
That's ok, you've given up. So the way you see it, may as well vote for the bad thing anyway since all being equal it doesn't matter.
I haven't, won't.
How do countries end up with despot leaders?..... this is how.
|
|
|
Post by freonbale on Sept 8, 2024 20:23:14 GMT
Of course, happy to restate. You say unlimited immunity is unacceptable, so my follow-up question is in regards to the court cases that involve Donald, where he believes they should be dropped due to unlimited immunity. Do you agree with his position? Freon I disagree with Trump that there should be “unlimited immunity”. But if establishment presidents get it, which they obviously have had for much more serious crimes than paying off a porn star, then Trump shouldn’t be prosecuted. I don’t even know who the “victims” are in this case, and so I don’t care that he did it. Is it immoral? Certainly. But our degenerate society doesn’t really concern itself with such old fashioned nonsense, does it? So you are saying that because past presidents have gotten away with crime, Donald should get away with it as well? And I have to assume you have no idea what the case is actually about, considering you reference paying off a porn star as the crime. That wasn't the crime at all. It's that he hid the payment, and paying her off is considered a campaign expense. It really wouldn't have mattered what he spent the money on, it was illegal for him to contribute that much to his campaign, AND he didn't acknowledge it even happened. Donald stole that election, as a result. Had the porn star payments been made public, which they legally should have, it very well could have cost him the election. But I get it now. I understand your position. You've given up on our system, and as long as everyone seems to be breaking the law, why not Donald. Freon
|
|
|
Post by rabbitreborn on Sept 8, 2024 21:21:02 GMT
Based on history, it would have no practical impact. Impeachment has been and will remain the only way to start a process which will punish a president.
That's ok, you've given up. So the way you see it, may as well vote for the bad thing anyway since all being equal it doesn't matter.
I haven't, won't.
How do countries end up with despot leaders?..... this is how.
Voting for it? I have no say in any of it. What do you think is happening here?
|
|
|
Post by rabbitreborn on Sept 8, 2024 21:24:34 GMT
I disagree with Trump that there should be “unlimited immunity”. But if establishment presidents get it, which they obviously have had for much more serious crimes than paying off a porn star, then Trump shouldn’t be prosecuted. I don’t even know who the “victims” are in this case, and so I don’t care that he did it. Is it immoral? Certainly. But our degenerate society doesn’t really concern itself with such old fashioned nonsense, does it? So you are saying that because past presidents have gotten away with crime, Donald should get away with it as well? Well, yes. If presidents get away with murder, but then a specific president, hated by the bureaucracy and neocons and corporate media and party elites from both oligarchic parties, is attacked with the judicial system for things that shouldn’t even be crimes, then that’s a dangerous establishment.
|
|
|
Post by atreyu on Sept 8, 2024 23:04:20 GMT
I disagree with Trump that there should be “unlimited immunity”. But if establishment presidents get it, which they obviously have had for much more serious crimes than paying off a porn star, then Trump shouldn’t be prosecuted. I don’t even know who the “victims” are in this case, and so I don’t care that he did it. Is it immoral? Certainly. But our degenerate society doesn’t really concern itself with such old fashioned nonsense, does it? So you are saying that because past presidents have gotten away with crime, Donald should get away with it as well? And I have to assume you have no idea what the case is actually about, considering you reference paying off a porn star as the crime. That wasn't the crime at all. It's that he hid the payment, and paying her off is considered a campaign expense. It really wouldn't have mattered what he spent the money on, it was illegal for him to contribute that much to his campaign, AND he didn't acknowledge it even happened. Donald stole that election, as a result. Had the porn star payments been made public, which they legally should have, it very well could have cost him the election. But I get it now. I understand your position. You've given up on our system, and as long as everyone seems to be breaking the law, why not Donald. Freon
He has given up on the system while simultaneously voting for the worst option.
He's obviously lying.
Surprise.
|
|
|
Post by freonbale on Sept 9, 2024 1:32:19 GMT
So you are saying that because past presidents have gotten away with crime, Donald should get away with it as well? Well, yes. If presidents get away with murder, but then a specific president, hated by the bureaucracy and neocons and corporate media and party elites from both oligarchic parties, is attacked with the judicial system for things that shouldn’t even be crimes, then that’s a dangerous establishment. Lot of if's there. What about the premise that they have gotten away with crimes BECAUSE no one has held them accountable, BECAUSE it was the status quo, and it simply took a president who not only broke laws, but paraded their ability to do so in front of the whole nation, to actually begin changing that status quo. Because that's how we look at it. We have drawn a line and said that from now on, NO president, regardless of party, can break those laws ever again and expect to get away with it. That sounds like a huge improvement to me. You are choosing the status quo, over moving us towards that better, more fair system where everyone is treated equally, just as you wanted. Freon
|
|
|
Post by jasmine on Sept 9, 2024 2:39:56 GMT
So I see it quite often that you have a huge distrust of the government.
Help me understand why you also want to give the government more power.... I mean all the way up to giving the president immunity to commit crimes.
I don't have that much trust in the government. You claim you distrust the government, but your policies and positions indicate otherwise.
Help me understand.
Well, *I* have never supported the idea of presidential immunity, and never will. I don’t even support the idea of presidents having the power to pardon criminals.
|
|
|
Post by queshank on Sept 9, 2024 3:37:27 GMT
Why do you support protecting prior presidents from their actions within the context of their official duties?
Queshank
I'm not, that's a straw-man. You know that.
I guess I haven't seen you acknowledge that assassinating Americans is orders of magnitude worse than a dipshit taking declassified files that he has the full authority to declassify. Queshank
|
|
|
Post by queshank on Sept 9, 2024 3:38:25 GMT
These threads help illustrate just how deranged you modern American letists actually are. You go into a thread with your opinion set in stone and think you're having a conversation. But any response that doesn't match your pre coded belief structure is dismissed as not applying.
Doubly so you've bought into opinions about the legal opinion and completely ignored the fact that the immunity was literally called "qualified" and in the context of official duties with a direct expressing that "the president is not above the law."
Do you think Obama should be brought up on charges for violating the Constitution and our entire "system" so egregiously that he assassinated American citizens? Or should he have "qualified immunity" because he was operating within the context of his duties as president? How about just the fact that Bush the Younger and Obama started doing targeted assassinations and set that terrible precedent as well?
But no. Your big concern is that the president having the power to declassify documents (and the "process" is for employees of the state to follow not the president) should be determined by you and media pundits. Assassinate American citizens? No biggie. That's whataboutism. But it's super duper hyper important that we focus on whether or not the president follows the employee regulations for declassifying documents.
And you ignore completely that Jack Smith has rebrought the charges. What happened to immunity?
More than anything your belief in that talking point makes me so very happy I have divested myself of allegiances to the American left.
Queshank
You're making up positions that aren't mine. Strawmen.
Is it your usual ploy for dodging any accountability on your part? Guess we'll see.
They're strawmen you say. And yet they're an apt description of this thread and the posters here's concerns about immunity.
Queshank
|
|
|
Post by rabbitreborn on Sept 9, 2024 10:03:40 GMT
Well, yes. If presidents get away with murder, but then a specific president, hated by the bureaucracy and neocons and corporate media and party elites from both oligarchic parties, is attacked with the judicial system for things that shouldn’t even be crimes, then that’s a dangerous establishment. Lot of if's there. There’s one “if”. That’s not a lot for most people. And it’s not really an “if”. But you’re being a very good boy. Maybe they’ll notice you!
|
|
|
Post by freonbale on Sept 9, 2024 15:28:02 GMT
There’s one “if”. That’s not a lot for most people. And it’s not really an “if”. But you’re being a very good boy. Maybe they’ll notice you! You are SUCH a literalist. Yes, technically there is only one actual word, 'if'. But your if statement has many parameters, and each one extends that one if. It's no wonder you don't understand the news and the world, if you can't understand beyond literal communication. Freon
|
|
|
Post by rabbitreborn on Sept 9, 2024 16:13:26 GMT
There’s one “if”. That’s not a lot for most people. And it’s not really an “if”. But you’re being a very good boy. Maybe they’ll notice you! You are SUCH a literalist. Yes, technically there is only one actual word, 'if'. But your if statement has many parameters, and each one extends that one if. Freon I notice you’re not disputing the one “if”. People use “if / then” statements to formulate and illustrate an obvious conclusion, not merely to speculate on an unknown. If you have anything to respond to the actual argument, let me know. I won’t play your dimwit games as you continue to fail to understand my points. Enjoy your week!
|
|
|
Post by freonbale on Sept 9, 2024 17:32:25 GMT
You are SUCH a literalist. Yes, technically there is only one actual word, 'if'. But your if statement has many parameters, and each one extends that one if. Freon I notice you’re not disputing the one “if”. People use “if / then” statements to formulate and illustrate an obvious conclusion, not merely to speculate on an unknown. If you have anything to respond to the actual argument, let me know. I won’t play your dimwit games as you continue to fail to understand my points. Enjoy your week! Your if is conjecture. There is no evidentiary substance to respond to. That was my point. Freon
|
|
|
Post by rabbitreborn on Sept 9, 2024 18:52:08 GMT
I notice you’re not disputing the one “if”. People use “if / then” statements to formulate and illustrate an obvious conclusion, not merely to speculate on an unknown. If you have anything to respond to the actual argument, let me know. I won’t play your dimwit games as you continue to fail to understand my points. Enjoy your week! Your if is conjecture. There is no evidentiary substance to respond to. That was my point. Freon I'm sure it's happened more frequently, but Obama had an American citizen killed while the individual was not performing any crime and far from any active combat zone. This is well documented. Afterward, they argued they had every right to do so... www.aclu.org/press-releases/obama-administration-claims-unchecked-authority-kill-americans-outside-combat-zonesBut c'mon. Make sure you and your buddies call me a fascist.
|
|
|
Post by Fiddler on Sept 9, 2024 19:34:27 GMT
I'm not, that's a straw-man. You know that. I guess I haven't seen you acknowledge that assassinating Americans is orders of magnitude worse than a dipshit taking declassified files that he has the full authority to declassify. Queshank
That's terrible.. What were those Americans doing .. ? Who put them in the line of fire?
|
|
thor
Legend
Posts: 20,536
Member is Online
|
Post by thor on Sept 9, 2024 19:34:29 GMT
Been taking lessons from Que-Anon on fucking up 'analysis'? academic.oup.com/book/3744/chapter-abstract/145205431?redirectedFrom=fulltextThis chapter analyzes the constitutionality of the targeted killing of Anwar al-Awlaki, a U.S. citizen whom the executive branch believed to be a senior planner for AQAP (a regional branch of al-Qaeda), concluding that the Obama administration’s claim that the killing was lawful is correct, but that the administration’s reasoning was seriously defective. Because Congress had authorized military action against al-Qaeda but not total war, contrary to the executive, the 2001 Authorization for the Use of Military Force (AUMF) was the only available source of domestic-law authority; the killing, however, was within the scope of the AUMF. The administration overlooked Supreme Court precedent showing that the Fourth and Fifth Amendments do not apply to the military use of deadly force under the AUMF. If the Fifth Amendment had applied as the administration assumed, the killing of al-Awlaki would have been a clear violation of the Fifth Amendment Due Process Clause. Ooooooooooooops. Sorry, not sorry about your pal, al-Awlaki. Since you are now on-record as supporting the former piece of shit, how many missions did you compromise while you were downrange, Oath-Breaker? Further, imbecile, bin Laden was 'not performing any crime and far from any active combat zone.' Are you saying we should not have wasted his ass too, scumbag?
|
|
|
Post by rabbitreborn on Sept 9, 2024 20:03:07 GMT
Been taking lessons from Que-Anon on fucking up 'analysis'? academic.oup.com/book/3744/chapter-abstract/145205431?redirectedFrom=fulltextThis chapter analyzes the constitutionality of the targeted killing of Anwar al-Awlaki, a U.S. citizen whom the executive branch believed to be a senior planner for AQAP (a regional branch of al-Qaeda), concluding that the Obama administration’s claim that the killing was lawful is correct, but that the administration’s reasoning was seriously defective. Because Congress had authorized military action against al-Qaeda but not total war, contrary to the executive, the 2001 Authorization for the Use of Military Force (AUMF) was the only available source of domestic-law authority; the killing, however, was within the scope of the AUMF. The administration overlooked Supreme Court precedent showing that the Fourth and Fifth Amendments do not apply to the military use of deadly force under the AUMF. If the Fifth Amendment had applied as the administration assumed, the killing of al-Awlaki would have been a clear violation of the Fifth Amendment Due Process Clause. Ooooooooooooops. Sorry, not sorry about your pal, al-Awlaki. Since you are now on-record as supporting the former piece of shit, how many missions did you compromise while you were downrange, Oath-Breaker? Further, imbecile, bin Laden was 'not performing any crime and far from any active combat zone.' Are you saying we should not have wasted his ass too, scumbag? You seem to be supporting the notion that the AUMF authorizes the executive branch murdering an American citizen without any due process. And then you'll call me a bootlicker because I think taxes are too high. But you're fine with the president murdering an American citizen. BTW, Bin Laden wasn't an American citizen. I'm so sorry that's news to you. I'm sorry that I need to explain that to you. I hope you have a pleasant rest of your day.
|
|
|
Post by rabbitreborn on Sept 9, 2024 20:04:48 GMT
I guess I haven't seen you acknowledge that assassinating Americans is orders of magnitude worse than a dipshit taking declassified files that he has the full authority to declassify. Queshank
That's terrible.. What were those Americans doing .. ? Who put them in the line of fire? Line of fire in Yemen in 2011. Being in the Middle East puts you in the "line of fire" during the war on terror.
|
|