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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2021 18:03:24 GMT
Ahh.. Looks like the alternate history rewrites from the Cult are beginning to pour in ..
Nope, just facts. Why do you hate the facts, boy? The single most laughable fiction in this Afghanistan story is that it is, in any way, Trump's fault.
As we say down here, "something's just not right with that boy" (add melodious Southern drawl for full effect). Bless his heart.
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demos
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Post by demos on Aug 16, 2021 18:08:19 GMT
Biden IS to blame for the poor handling of the withdrawal. Are you denying this incompetence by the Biden team? I place more blame on the Pentagon, where it rightfully goes, and which is exactly where I placed much of the blame for undermining Trump's plans for withdrawal. Both deserve some blame for not demanding more from the military and making sure they followed through. The Taliban has been launching winter offenses pretty regularly. Go back to my post and look at the articles I added, and those are just from 2008, 2011, 2015, 2016 and 2017. There was also a winter offensive in 2009 ( Source). Bet if I keep searching, I'm going to find more. If you search, you'll see where the Taliban announces its spring offenses, which seems to have influenced a lot of thinking about this conflict; however, the Taliban did launch offenses in the winter. It was hardly unusual. But back to the point, when Trump was wanting to pull out by Christmas, there were already attacks. If we had left by May 1, 2021 (the scheduled deadline), then we would've been in the beginning of the spring offensive. So, either way. |
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Post by Fiddler on Aug 16, 2021 18:09:05 GMT
Ahh.. Looks like the alternate history rewrites from the Cult are beginning to pour in ..
Nope, just facts. Why do you hate the facts, boy? The single most laughable fiction in this Afghanistan story is that it is, in any way, Trump's fault.
As we say down here, "something's just not right with that boy" (add melodious Southern drawl for full effect). Bless his heart.
I'm not Black..
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Post by Fiddler on Aug 16, 2021 18:12:10 GMT
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Post by oldtrapper on Aug 16, 2021 18:13:51 GMT
To be fair, our troops in Europe and S. Korea have not been engaged in active hostilities for the last 20 years with no real end in sight. Your question is legitimate, but comparing Afghanistan to Europe is a long stretch. Having a base in a friendly country can be fairly easily justified. Being actively engaged in a 20 year conflict requires the answer to a key question: What is the end game? Is the end game just eternal policing of local hostiles? If you can't formulate a coherent answer with real tangible and attainable goals, then people shouldn't be surprised when it comes to an end. How much money has been spent on Afghanistan over the last 20 years? Hundreds and hundreds of billions. To what impact? 20 years on and the country folds instantly the moment we leave. There was no civil culture, no actual functioning military, no infrastructure, endemic corruption and most importantly, the people still don't seem willing to collectively take up arms and cast out the Taliban. We, the USA have been the effective government of Afghanistan for 20 years. Last I checked, there is a Constitutional process for adding states to the Union. The Taliban was funded by Saudi Arabia and Pakistani ISS. Did we ever hold them to account? Of course not. This is from 2016, very recent: Saudis Bankroll Taliban, Even as King Officially Supports Afghan Government www.nytimes.com/2016/12/06/world/asia/saudi-arabia-afghanistan.htmlBy allowing such situations, it was and would have remained, an eternal war. And another trivia point. The current leader of the Taliban, Abdul Ghani Baradar, was freed from a Pakistani jail less than 3 years ago AT US REQUEST. So this wasn't predictable at all was it? Now his Taliban are in control and he leads the country. www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/15/talibans-abdul-ghani-baradar-is-undisputed-victor-of-a-20-year-warSometimes it seems like we WANT these conflicts to go on....and on.....and on. The ME + Afghanistan has been a quagmire of spending, death and failed nation building since WWII. It's a fucking nightmare that has drained resources, distracted us and since 9-11, helped to contribute to the political instability we recently see in our own country.
And why have we allowed the Saudis to bankroll chaos and dismay in the region for so long?
Answer in one word: OIL Didn't "we" sell a bunch of arms to the Saudi's? |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2021 18:16:59 GMT
Nope, just facts. Why do you hate the facts, boy? The single most laughable fiction in this Afghanistan story is that it is, in any way, Trump's fault.
As we say down here, "something's just not right with that boy" (add melodious Southern drawl for full effect). Bless his heart.
I'm not Black..
Only a racist is stupid enough to assume that the term is related to skin color, especially when the stupid racist boy has been repeatedly told that it means "childish and immature". |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2021 18:19:48 GMT
The stupid racist boy left out a step. "Mullah Abdul Ghani took over Afghanistan after Joe Biden stupidly and incompetently mishandled U.S. withdrawl"
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Post by Fiddler on Aug 16, 2021 18:27:45 GMT
Just deleted from the Republican Party’s website.. They're desperate to distance Trump from this ..
PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS CONTINUED TO TAKE THE LEAD IN PEACE TALKS AS HE SIGNED A HISTORIC PEACE AGREEMENT WITH THE TALIBAN IN AFGHANISTAN, WHICH WOULD END AMERICA'S LONGEST WAR
On February 2, 2020, the Trump Administration signed a preliminary peace agreement with the Taliban that sets the stage to end America's longest war.
Under the agreement, the U.S. will withdraw nearly 5,000 troops from the country in 135 days in exchange for a Taliban agreement to not allow Afghanistan to be used for transnational terrorism.
Time Magazine reported that other components of the agreement included an agreement that U.S. counterterrorism forces stay in the country, permissions for the CIA to operate in Taliban-held areas, and details of how the Taliban's promises to reduce violence will be monitored and verified.
The deal has been called the " best chance to end this conflict ," a " decisive move " towards peace, and " the best path " for the United States.
The war in Afghanistan is the longest in U.S. history, a conflict that has killed more than 3,500 U.S. and NATO troops and cost U.S. taxpayers nearly 900 billion dollars.
As part of the peace agreement, the Taliban and the Afghan government recently began historic peace, talks which would end decades of war that Afghanistan has consumed.
The negotiations will cover the terms of a " permanent ceasefire, the rights of women and minorities, and the disarmament of the country's many militia groups ."
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demos
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Post by demos on Aug 16, 2021 18:28:57 GMT
^ That was the right call btw.
The domestic politics of this (not to mention the punditry) have gone full retard.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2021 18:49:23 GMT
Just deleted from the Republican Party’s website.. They're desperate to distance Trump from this ..
PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS CONTINUED TO TAKE THE LEAD IN PEACE TALKS AS HE SIGNED A HISTORIC PEACE AGREEMENT WITH THE TALIBAN IN AFGHANISTAN, WHICH WOULD END AMERICA'S LONGEST WAR
On February 2, 2020, the Trump Administration signed a preliminary peace agreement with the Taliban that sets the stage to end America's longest war.
Under the agreement, the U.S. will withdraw nearly 5,000 troops from the country in 135 days in exchange for a Taliban agreement to not allow Afghanistan to be used for transnational terrorism.
Time Magazine reported that other components of the agreement included an agreement that U.S. counterterrorism forces stay in the country, permissions for the CIA to operate in Taliban-held areas, and details of how the Taliban's promises to reduce violence will be monitored and verified.
The deal has been called the " best chance to end this conflict ," a " decisive move " towards peace, and " the best path " for the United States.
The war in Afghanistan is the longest in U.S. history, a conflict that has killed more than 3,500 U.S. and NATO troops and cost U.S. taxpayers nearly 900 billion dollars.
As part of the peace agreement, the Taliban and the Afghan government recently began historic peace, talks which would end decades of war that Afghanistan has consumed.
The negotiations will cover the terms of a " permanent ceasefire, the rights of women and minorities, and the disarmament of the country's many militia groups ."
Stupid boy missed the point again. How many here on both sides agree that withdrawal was the right decision? Even YOU agree with Trump on that one, don't you boy?
Both the decision to withdraw and HOW the withdrawal was handled is ALL ON BIDEN, and like everything else he touches, he screwed it up. It's Biden's Saigon debacle. Biden ALONE decided to make this move without considering the Taliban's violations of the Doha agreement or the lack of progress in the talks mentioned above.
You sure are desperate to protect Biden, aren't you boy? We know the truth and it's clear why you hate the truth.
ALL.ON.BIDEN.
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demos
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Post by demos on Aug 16, 2021 18:51:46 GMT
Both the decision to withdraw and HOW the withdrawal was handled is ALL ON BIDEN, and like everything else he touches, he screwed it up. It's Biden's Saigon debacle. Biden ALONE decided to make this move without considering the Taliban's violations of the Doha agreement or the lack of progress in the talks mentioned above. You keep saying this without similarly placing any blame on Trump for the same thing about his decision to withdraw. Can hardly take your criticism of Biden seriously in that respect. It's just straight partisanship. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2021 19:00:25 GMT
Both the decision to withdraw and HOW the withdrawal was handled is ALL ON BIDEN, and like everything else he touches, he screwed it up. It's Biden's Saigon debacle. Biden ALONE decided to make this move without considering the Taliban's violations of the Doha agreement or the lack of progress in the talks mentioned above. You keep saying this without similarly placing any blame on Trump for the same thing about his decision to withdraw. Can hardly take your criticism of Biden seriously in that respect. It's just straight partisanship. And bringing Trump into this conversation at all shows your biased partisanship. Once again, let me simplify it for you: Withdrawal=GOOD, Trump's withdrawal=DIDN'T HAPPEN, Biden's mucked up management of the actual withdrawal=BLOODY, INCOMPETENT.
You can scream all day that "Trump's got a gun!" but it was Biden that pulled the trigger.
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demos
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Post by demos on Aug 16, 2021 19:08:39 GMT
And bringing Trump into this conversation at all shows your biased partisanship. How is he not part of the conversation? His administration made the deal with the Taliban in February 2020 that said the U.S. would withdraw troops within 14 months. That is the deal the current administration was operating under. Why not just address the point. You're blaming Biden for something Trump himself didn't do when he made his decision (that was your claim about Biden - when he made his decision) and wasn't planning on doing had he won if you read through this thread. Your arguments here are based on nothing but partisanship. You haven't been following this. You jumped in now so you can place blame on Biden. If you had been following all this, you'd see that the same thing would've happened under Trump, because there was no adequate planning being made for withdrawal by the Pentagon. Read through this thread from the beginning. Fact of the matter is there's 20 years worth of blame here - starting with Bush. Four presidents had a hand in it (Biden as a member of Congress and Vice President). Congress has had a hand in it. And the Pentagon and the generals who kept pumping sunshine and blowing smoke damn sure have their part in it. But instead, everyone wants to play the partisan blame game for domestic political consumption. EDIT to add: What's entirely on the Biden administration right now is the lack of urgency to get out Afghans who helped the U.S., as well as others. We need to be doing something to help those people, as well as other refugees. |
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Post by Fiddler on Aug 16, 2021 19:47:08 GMT
^ That was the right call btw. The domestic politics of this (not to mention the punditry) have gone full retard.
Yes.. And everyone knew the 'blame Biden' would erupt from the Cult just as when Obama pulled troops from Iraq
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Post by Fiddler on Aug 16, 2021 19:48:57 GMT
Just deleted from the Republican Party’s website.. They're desperate to distance Trump from this ..
PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS CONTINUED TO TAKE THE LEAD IN PEACE TALKS AS HE SIGNED A HISTORIC PEACE AGREEMENT WITH THE TALIBAN IN AFGHANISTAN, WHICH WOULD END AMERICA'S LONGEST WAR
On February 2, 2020, the Trump Administration signed a preliminary peace agreement with the Taliban that sets the stage to end America's longest war.
Under the agreement, the U.S. will withdraw nearly 5,000 troops from the country in 135 days in exchange for a Taliban agreement to not allow Afghanistan to be used for transnational terrorism.
Time Magazine reported that other components of the agreement included an agreement that U.S. counterterrorism forces stay in the country, permissions for the CIA to operate in Taliban-held areas, and details of how the Taliban's promises to reduce violence will be monitored and verified.
The deal has been called the " best chance to end this conflict ," a " decisive move " towards peace, and " the best path " for the United States.
The war in Afghanistan is the longest in U.S. history, a conflict that has killed more than 3,500 U.S. and NATO troops and cost U.S. taxpayers nearly 900 billion dollars.
As part of the peace agreement, the Taliban and the Afghan government recently began historic peace, talks which would end decades of war that Afghanistan has consumed.
The negotiations will cover the terms of a " permanent ceasefire, the rights of women and minorities, and the disarmament of the country's many militia groups ."
Stupid boy missed the point again. How many here on both sides agree that withdrawal was the right decision? Even YOU agree with Trump on that one, don't you boy?
Both the decision to withdraw and HOW the withdrawal was handled is ALL ON BIDEN, and like everything else he touches, he screwed it up. It's Biden's Saigon debacle. Biden ALONE decided to make this move without considering the Taliban's violations of the Doha agreement or the lack of progress in the talks mentioned above.
You sure are desperate to protect Biden, aren't you boy? We know the truth and it's clear why you hate the truth.
ALL.ON.BIDEN.
You're a joke and I'm not Black..
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demos
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Post by demos on Aug 16, 2021 20:03:15 GMT
If this is the case, we need to get as many people out as we can.
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Post by Maestro on Aug 16, 2021 20:13:36 GMT
^ That was the right call btw. The domestic politics of this (not to mention the punditry) have gone full retard. The pulling out of Afghanistan is a disaster. Unfortunately, I am unable to think of a way to actually leave that wouldn't lead to a disaster and, ultimately, Taliban (or other extremist) leadership. Biden bungled in promising that any similarities between our withdrawal in Afghanistan and Saigon would be "None whatsoever. Zero.” But I'm not convinced he bungled in preventing those similarities. I think they were inevitable. Regardless, perpetual war is the only way I can think of to keep the Taliban out of power. And perpetual war is not acceptable. Afghanistan is not Japan and it is not Germany. If we couldn't establish a stable, pro-Western democratic republic in 20 years, we are never going to do it. Afghanistan simply does not have the cultural foundation necessary to make it work. All of our work will be destroyed when we leave. Which was, as I said, probably inevitable. |
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demos
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Posts: 9,214
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Post by demos on Aug 16, 2021 20:25:56 GMT
Biden bungled in promising that any similarities between our withdrawal in Afghanistan and Saigon would be "None whatsoever. Zero.” But I'm not convinced he bungled in preventing those similarities. I think they were inevitable. This is where I'm at. He set himself up with some rosy scenarios about the withdrawal, probably to help sell it, but this is where we were headed, and I don't know how anyone could've looked at what's been happening regarding withdrawal planning and come to any other conclusion. And I'd be saying the same about Trump were he in the same position today, because I was already on record saying the military and many of his advisers were undermining the withdrawal efforts. Heck, they had even bragged about it with regard to Syria: “When the situation in northeast Syria had been fairly stable after we defeated ISIS, [Trump] was inclined to pull out. In each case, we then decided to come up with five better arguments for why we needed to stay. And we succeeded both times. That’s the story.” |
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Post by Fiddler on Aug 16, 2021 20:28:23 GMT
But I'm not convinced he bungled in preventing those similarities. I think they were inevitable. This^ .. You're spot on about the culture.. It's tribal. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2021 20:58:31 GMT
And bringing Trump into this conversation at all shows your biased partisanship. How is he not part of the conversation? His administration made the deal with the Taliban in February 2020 that said the U.S. would withdraw troops within 14 months. That is the deal the current administration was operating under. Why not just address the point. You're blaming Biden for something Trump himself didn't do when he made his decision (that was your claim about Biden - when he made his decision) and wasn't planning on doing had he won if you read through this thread. Your arguments here are based on nothing but partisanship. You haven't been following this. You jumped in now so you can place blame on Biden. If you had been following all this, you'd see that the same thing would've happened under Trump, because there was no adequate planning being made for withdrawal by the Pentagon. Read through this thread from the beginning. Fact of the matter is there's 20 years worth of blame here - starting with Bush. Four presidents had a hand in it (Biden as a member of Congress and Vice President). Congress has had a hand in it. And the Pentagon and the generals who kept pumping sunshine and blowing smoke damn sure have their part in it. But instead, everyone wants to play the partisan blame game for domestic political consumption. EDIT to add: What's entirely on the Biden administration right now is the lack of urgency to get out Afghans who helped the U.S., as well as others. We need to be doing something to help those people, as well as other refugees. Please be kidding with this. Are you so naive to believe that if Trump was responsible for the Afghanistan fiasco, you and the other leftists would be working hard to make sure the blame is shared?
Sure, there are many who share in the bad decisions, but only one senile old fool that's being protected by such rhetoric.
Biden made the call; he owns the situation. Pretending to know what Trump WOULD HAVE done is a moot point. He didn't withdraw, so you're only guessing at best.
It's akin to saying that everybody stood on the edge of the cliff and didn't jump, therefore, they are just as mangled as the guy who actually jumped.
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