Odysseus
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Trump = Disaster
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Post by Odysseus on Aug 16, 2021 16:31:56 GMT
Question no one seems to be asking is why did we have to leave? We have thousands of troops in So. Korea under a "cease fire" agreement, not an end to the war. We have thousands of troops in Europe maintaining the peace. So, why did we have to leave Afghanistan, or is it now the position of America to desert our allies as we did to the Kurds in Syria? To be fair, our troops in Europe and S. Korea have not been engaged in active hostilities for the last 20 years with no real end in sight. Your question is legitimate, but comparing Afghanistan to Europe is a long stretch. Having a base in a friendly country can be fairly easily justified. Being actively engaged in a 20 year conflict requires the answer to a key question: What is the end game? Is the end game just eternal policing of local hostiles? If you can't formulate a coherent answer with real tangible and attainable goals, then people shouldn't be surprised when it comes to an end. How much money has been spent on Afghanistan over the last 20 years? Hundreds and hundreds of billions. To what impact? 20 years on and the country folds instantly the moment we leave. There was no civil culture, no actual functioning military, no infrastructure, endemic corruption and most importantly, the people still don't seem willing to collectively take up arms and cast out the Taliban. We, the USA have been the effective government of Afghanistan for 20 years. Last I checked, there is a Constitutional process for adding states to the Union. The Taliban was funded by Saudi Arabia and Pakistani ISS. Did we ever hold them to account? Of course not. This is from 2016, very recent: Saudis Bankroll Taliban, Even as King Officially Supports Afghan Government www.nytimes.com/2016/12/06/world/asia/saudi-arabia-afghanistan.htmlBy allowing such situations, it was and would have remained, an eternal war. And another trivia point. The current leader of the Taliban, Abdul Ghani Baradar, was freed from a Pakistani jail less than 3 years ago AT US REQUEST. So this wasn't predictable at all was it? Now his Taliban are in control and he leads the country. www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/15/talibans-abdul-ghani-baradar-is-undisputed-victor-of-a-20-year-warSometimes it seems like we WANT these conflicts to go on....and on.....and on. The ME + Afghanistan has been a quagmire of spending, death and failed nation building since WWII. It's a fucking nightmare that has drained resources, distracted us and since 9-11, helped to contribute to the political instability we recently see in our own country.
And why have we allowed the Saudis to bankroll chaos and dismay in the region for so long?
Answer in one word: OIL
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2021 16:52:02 GMT
Question no one seems to be asking is why did we have to leave? We have thousands of troops in So. Korea under a "cease fire" agreement, not an end to the war. We have thousands of troops in Europe maintaining the peace. So, why did we have to leave Afghanistan, or is it now the position of America to desert our allies as we did to the Kurds in Syria? To be fair, our troops in Europe and S. Korea have not been engaged in active hostilities for the last 20 years with no real end in sight. Your question is legitimate, but comparing Afghanistan to Europe is a long stretch. Having a base in a friendly country can be fairly easily justified. Being actively engaged in a 20 year conflict requires the answer to a key question: What is the end game? Is the end game just eternal policing of local hostiles? If you can't formulate a coherent answer with real tangible and attainable goals, then people shouldn't be surprised when it comes to an end. How much money has been spent on Afghanistan over the last 20 years? Hundreds and hundreds of billions. To what impact? 20 years on and the country folds instantly the moment we leave. There was no civil culture, no actual functioning military, no infrastructure, endemic corruption and most importantly, the people still don't seem willing to collectively take up arms and cast out the Taliban. We, the USA have been the effective government of Afghanistan for 20 years. Last I checked, there is a Constitutional process for adding states to the Union. The Taliban was funded by Saudi Arabia and Pakistani ISS. Did we ever hold them to account? Of course not. This is from 2016, very recent: Saudis Bankroll Taliban, Even as King Officially Supports Afghan Government www.nytimes.com/2016/12/06/world/asia/saudi-arabia-afghanistan.htmlBy allowing such situations, it was and would have remained, an eternal war. And another trivia point. The current leader of the Taliban, Abdul Ghani Baradar, was freed from a Pakistani jail less than 3 years ago AT US REQUEST. So this wasn't predictable at all was it? Now his Taliban are in control and he leads the country. www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/15/talibans-abdul-ghani-baradar-is-undisputed-victor-of-a-20-year-warSometimes it seems like we WANT these conflicts to go on....and on.....and on. The ME + Afghanistan has been a quagmire of spending, death and failed nation building since WWII. It's a fucking nightmare that has drained resources, distracted us and since 9-11, helped to contribute to the political instability we recently see in our own country. Don't agree with VYPR much, but that analysis was spot on.
I wonder how long we've known that the alleged government in Afghanistan was so weak and fragile? Perhaps that's why Trump omitted those clowns from his agreement last year. |
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Post by atreyu on Aug 16, 2021 16:55:40 GMT
To be fair, our troops in Europe and S. Korea have not been engaged in active hostilities for the last 20 years with no real end in sight. Your question is legitimate, but comparing Afghanistan to Europe is a long stretch. Having a base in a friendly country can be fairly easily justified. Being actively engaged in a 20 year conflict requires the answer to a key question: What is the end game? Is the end game just eternal policing of local hostiles? If you can't formulate a coherent answer with real tangible and attainable goals, then people shouldn't be surprised when it comes to an end. How much money has been spent on Afghanistan over the last 20 years? Hundreds and hundreds of billions. To what impact? 20 years on and the country folds instantly the moment we leave. There was no civil culture, no actual functioning military, no infrastructure, endemic corruption and most importantly, the people still don't seem willing to collectively take up arms and cast out the Taliban. We, the USA have been the effective government of Afghanistan for 20 years. Last I checked, there is a Constitutional process for adding states to the Union. The Taliban was funded by Saudi Arabia and Pakistani ISS. Did we ever hold them to account? Of course not. This is from 2016, very recent: Saudis Bankroll Taliban, Even as King Officially Supports Afghan Government www.nytimes.com/2016/12/06/world/asia/saudi-arabia-afghanistan.htmlBy allowing such situations, it was and would have remained, an eternal war. And another trivia point. The current leader of the Taliban, Abdul Ghani Baradar, was freed from a Pakistani jail less than 3 years ago AT US REQUEST. So this wasn't predictable at all was it? Now his Taliban are in control and he leads the country. www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/15/talibans-abdul-ghani-baradar-is-undisputed-victor-of-a-20-year-warSometimes it seems like we WANT these conflicts to go on....and on.....and on. The ME + Afghanistan has been a quagmire of spending, death and failed nation building since WWII. It's a fucking nightmare that has drained resources, distracted us and since 9-11, helped to contribute to the political instability we recently see in our own country. Don't agree with VYPR much, but that analysis was spot on.
I wonder how long we've known that the alleged government in Afghanistan was so weak and fragile? Perhaps that's why Trump omitted those clowns from his agreement last year.
I think the question is how long have you've not known the government in Afghanistan was weak and fragile?
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demos
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Post by demos on Aug 16, 2021 17:01:24 GMT
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2021 17:02:57 GMT
The fall of the Afghan government to the Taliban is nowhere near as bad for America as what happened in 2016. You know, that was when Trump won the presidency of the USA. Everything else pales in comparison. You post a lot of stupid stuff, Useless, but that fiction is one of your worst.
Trump was a much better president than Biden will ever be, especially on foreign policy.
Stop making excuses for that incompetent fool Biden. The Taliban had failed to live up to their part of the agreement, allowing Biden to abrogate the terms in their entirety.
It's actually a political win-win for conservatives. Win #!: we agree that we needed to get out and we are now out. Win #2: Biden has handled the withdrawal so poorly that Kabul looks like 1975 Saigon....not an image Biden wants to be associated with his legacy.
At every turn, Biden has demonstrated his utter incompetence, proving Trump to be right yet again. Joe had a choice on Afghanistan; it's all on him now.
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Post by atreyu on Aug 16, 2021 17:03:44 GMT
The fall of the Afghan government to the Taliban is nowhere near as bad for America as what happened in 2016. You know, that was when Trump won the presidency of the USA. Everything else pales in comparison. You post a lot of stupid stuff, Useless, but that fiction is one of your worst.
Trump was a much better president than Biden will ever be, especially on foreign policy.
Stop making excuses for that incompetent fool Biden. The Taliban had failed to live up to their part of the agreement, allowing Biden to abrogate the terms in their entirety.
It's actually a political win-win for conservatives. Win #!: we agree that we needed to get out and we are now out. Win #2: Biden has handled the withdrawal so poorly that Kabul looks like 1975 Saigon....not an image Biden wants to be associated with his legacy.
At every turn, Biden has demonstrated his utter incompetence, proving Trump to be right yet again. Joe had a choice on Afghanistan; it's all on him now.
Ah shit, sorry, I forgot, you believed Trump when he claimed he brought peace to the middle east. No wonder you are so confused.
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demos
Legend
Posts: 9,214
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Post by demos on Aug 16, 2021 17:07:43 GMT
Stop making excuses for that incompetent fool Biden. The Taliban had failed to live up to their part of the agreement, allowing Biden to abrogate the terms in their entirety. So, why didn't Trump abrogate the agreement last year when he was advocating leaving by Christmas (see the OP of this thread)? And his choice was continue pouring blood (because if we didn't withdraw the Taliban would've resumed attacks on US soldiers) and treasure into Afghanistan or leave. He made the right decision, even if the withdrawal has been a mess. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2021 17:09:12 GMT
Don't agree with VYPR much, but that analysis was spot on.
I wonder how long we've known that the alleged government in Afghanistan was so weak and fragile? Perhaps that's why Trump omitted those clowns from his agreement last year.
I think the question is how long have you've not known the government in Afghanistan was weak and fragile?
"How long have you've not known"? Are you just learning English?
I suspected that all along, but those in charge knew it for certain and should be investigated for allowing this bloody charade to go on this long. There's no excuse for pouring money and lives into a place that can't improve themselves after 20 years of us helping.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2021 17:13:32 GMT
Stop making excuses for that incompetent fool Biden. The Taliban had failed to live up to their part of the agreement, allowing Biden to abrogate the terms in their entirety. So, why didn't Trump abrogate the agreement last year when he was advocating leaving by Christmas (see the OP of this thread)? And his choice was continue pouring blood (because if we didn't withdraw the Taliban would've resumed attacks on US soldiers) and treasure into Afghanistan or leave. He made the right decision, even if the withdrawal has been a mess. Trump could have abrogated that agreement last Christmas; perhaps he was trying to get us out during the region's period of lessened fighting (we are now in the prime "fighting" months in the region).
As I said earlier, I agree with this decision to get out, but the withdrawal has been an unnecessary clusterf'k because of the incompetence of Biden and his team.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2021 17:16:01 GMT
You post a lot of stupid stuff, Useless, but that fiction is one of your worst.
Trump was a much better president than Biden will ever be, especially on foreign policy.
Stop making excuses for that incompetent fool Biden. The Taliban had failed to live up to their part of the agreement, allowing Biden to abrogate the terms in their entirety.
It's actually a political win-win for conservatives. Win #!: we agree that we needed to get out and we are now out. Win #2: Biden has handled the withdrawal so poorly that Kabul looks like 1975 Saigon....not an image Biden wants to be associated with his legacy.
At every turn, Biden has demonstrated his utter incompetence, proving Trump to be right yet again. Joe had a choice on Afghanistan; it's all on him now.
Ah shit, sorry, I forgot, you believed Trump when he claimed he brought peace to the middle east. No wonder you are so confused. He did a lot of good in the Middle East while keeping it from blowing up. Biden can't say the same. |
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Post by atreyu on Aug 16, 2021 17:16:02 GMT
I think the question is how long have you've not known the government in Afghanistan was weak and fragile?
"How long have you've not known"? Are you just learning English?
I suspected that all along, but those in charge knew it for certain and should be investigated for allowing this bloody charade to go on this long. There's no excuse for pouring money and lives into a place that can't improve themselves after 20 years of us helping.
No you didn't, or you wouldn't have asked the question.
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Post by atreyu on Aug 16, 2021 17:17:44 GMT
Ah shit, sorry, I forgot, you believed Trump when he claimed he brought peace to the middle east. No wonder you are so confused. He did a lot of good in the Middle East while keeping it from blowing up. Biden can't say the same.
By handing Afghanistan back over to the Taliban and increasing Iran's ability to build nuclear weapons?
Yeah, trump is a real hero.
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demos
Legend
Posts: 9,214
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Post by demos on Aug 16, 2021 17:22:45 GMT
Trump could have abrogated that agreement last Christmas; perhaps he was trying to get us out during the region's period of lessened fighting (we are now in the prime "fighting" months in the region).
There was no lull in the fighting. From October 2020 ( same month the OP was started): Taliban attacks in 70 percent of Afghanistan In December 2020: Taliban attacks increased in Afghan capital
Furthermore, the Taliban has not been taking a lot of these cities by fighting for them right now. It's been through negotiated surrenders. And this is where you are wrong. If we had left around Christmas or even May 1, 2021 (the original deadline), we would've seen the same thing. And the Pentagon, JCOS, etc. dragged their feet on planning a withdrawal, because they don't want to leave. That was true under Trump, and its still true today. That's been one of the issues discussed in this thread. |
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Post by CadesCove on Aug 16, 2021 17:26:04 GMT
You post a lot of stupid stuff, Useless, but that fiction is one of your worst.
Trump was a much better president than Biden will ever be, especially on foreign policy.
Stop making excuses for that incompetent fool Biden. The Taliban had failed to live up to their part of the agreement, allowing Biden to abrogate the terms in their entirety.
It's actually a political win-win for conservatives. Win #!: we agree that we needed to get out and we are now out. Win #2: Biden has handled the withdrawal so poorly that Kabul looks like 1975 Saigon....not an image Biden wants to be associated with his legacy.
At every turn, Biden has demonstrated his utter incompetence, proving Trump to be right yet again. Joe had a choice on Afghanistan; it's all on him now.
Ah shit, sorry, I forgot, you believed Trump when he claimed he brought peace to the middle east. No wonder you are so confused.
Love when they take a shit sandwich, throw a little mustard on it and declare in front of the world it's delicious. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2021 17:30:07 GMT
Ah shit, sorry, I forgot, you believed Trump when he claimed he brought peace to the middle east. No wonder you are so confused.
Love when they take a shit sandwich, throw a little mustard on it and declare in front of the world it's delicious. A shit sandwich is defined as CadesCove between two slices of bread. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2021 17:39:16 GMT
Trump could have abrogated that agreement last Christmas; perhaps he was trying to get us out during the region's period of lessened fighting (we are now in the prime "fighting" months in the region).
There was no lull in the fighting. From October 2020 ( same month the OP was started): Taliban attacks in 70 percent of Afghanistan In December 2020: Taliban attacks increased in Afghan capital
Furthermore, the Taliban has not been taking a lot of these cities by fighting for them right now. It's been through negotiated surrenders. And this is where you are wrong. If we had left around Christmas or even May 1, 2021 (the original deadline), we would've seen the same thing. And the Pentagon, JCOS, etc. dragged their feet on planning a withdrawal, because they don't want to leave. That was true under Trump, and its still true today. That's been one of the issues discussed in this thread. Nope.
The Afghanistan fighting season refers to the cyclical restarting of fighting every spring during the War in Afghanistan due to weather and economic factors. It generally runs from April to October.Afghanistan suffers from a harsh winter. Combined with Afghanistan's poor transportation system, this leaves many parts of the country snowbound until spring. Very importantly, in leaves many routes into Pakistan where recruits and weapons come from impassable for months.[2]
Opium poppies are planted beginning in October and harvest begins in April.[3][4] Manpower that was otherwise tied up in the Opium trade is freed up for fighting between April and October. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2021 17:45:08 GMT
"How long have you've not known"? Are you just learning English?
I suspected that all along, but those in charge knew it for certain and should be investigated for allowing this bloody charade to go on this long. There's no excuse for pouring money and lives into a place that can't improve themselves after 20 years of us helping.
No you didn't, or you wouldn't have asked the question.
You can't be this stupid IRL...I certainly hope not for your sake. I ask again, are you just now learning English?
Read my question again. I wondered how long we've known, implying that we have ALL known for a while.
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demos
Legend
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Post by demos on Aug 16, 2021 17:47:53 GMT
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Post by Fiddler on Aug 16, 2021 17:49:20 GMT
Ahh.. Looks like the alternate history rewrites from the Cult are beginning to pour in ..
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2021 17:59:43 GMT
You're really gonna post a Wikipedia article in response to actual reports of fighting in October - December (while conveniently ignoring the rest of the post)? Here's another one about a Taliban offensive in November 2020: The Taliban is on the offensive. There has been a cyclical nature to fighting in Afghanistan over the years, but right now, you're just denying what's right in front of you, because you have some desperate need to blame Biden I guess. Biden IS to blame for the poor handling of the withdrawal. Are you denying this incompetence by the Biden team?
And the slow down in fighting is not some arbitrary choice, it's weather related. The harsh winter would have slowed the takeover of the country
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